15 - Into the Black

0:00

This is another issue I think too that where we're going into dark ages, like death by specialization.

If we can't turn on the news and feel like we trust what we're being told, then if I wanted to research vaccines or climate change or whatever the topic of the day is, I literally have to set aside 6 to 9 months and do it myself.

0:17

Yeah, and it's going to.

I'm going to make mistakes.

It's going to be time consuming.

Your personal life and your relationships will take a hit because you can't put as much time into it.

But it's like for me, it's like unfortunately the only way to really move quickly or not move quickly, move towards the right answer.

I can't turn on the news and unless you just want to know most superficial, you know you're not going to get anything.

0:39

Knowledge based out of that.

Yeah, definitely knowledge.

You're right.

That's it's a sort of the big tragedy of our times.

I got.

I don't know, it might have even been like that before and we just didn't know about it.

But now at least we know about it and.

Yeah, you have those options, but you really have to dedicate the time if you want to know that sort of truth.

0:57

Good people cannot make good decisions with bad information, and I bump into good people making bad decisions with bad information.

Yeah.

Every.

Single.

Hi everyone.

I'm Jason and welcome to Intimate Discourse.

I certainly hope you're all floating on smashingly these days.

1:13

There's a lot going on in the world, and it almost feels as though if you're fortunate enough to sleep in one day, you're likely to miss some massive change that's occurring in either the technical or the social realm.

This episode is a bit of a doozy.

It clocks in that a little over three hours, and though the ideas discussed by Dmitri and myself are all relevant to our current socio political landscape, and our repertae is as scintillating as ever, I certainly recognize that three hours is a long time to invest into a podcast.

1:42

Originally, this was to be a twoparter given the hefty content, and a lot of our conversation was pruned to quash the rants and smooth out the tangents.

Please don't imagine that the three hour runtime implies that we're indifferent to your busy lives.

We respect your time and don't want to waste it.

1:58

We do consider this conversation to be 1 worth having and hope that you feel the same.

In this show, we postulate that the West is sinking into another Dark Age and point to various markers leading us to this hypothesis.

We discuss free speech, the hegemony of Big Tech, the adherence to tribalism, the reliance on institutional authority.

2:20

The problems with putting ideology before reality, the hubris coming off the heels of society's massive technological achievements and ultimately the downside of democracy.

This episode was recorded on October 16th and October 23rd, 2022 in Toronto, Canada.

2:38

I sincerely hope you enjoy the show.

3:01

Hello everyone.

Welcome to Intimate Discourse.

My name is Jason and I'm here with Dmitri.

Hi.

It's him how?

You doing?

Good.

Are you talking to me or the audience there?

Whole way okay so.

Today's episode is we wanted to well, I guess Dimitri has a little hypothesis here where this is sort of the first I'm hearing about it and the first that we're going to be talking about it.

3:30

And I kind of get the gist of what it's going to be about.

But we're going to sort of see where it goes and as some ideas where I think it's going to go and well let's just see what happens then.

But the the idea is really.

And correct me if I'm wrong here, Dmitry, but it's that we seem at this point in our history to be heading into a, an age that is reminiscent of what we would think of as the Dark Ages in the past, which really is characterized, you know, the Dark Ages, I think sort of generally speaking is thought of to be in the middle. 10,000 years, I guess.

4:16

So like, I think the 5th century to the 10th century really around then, like, you know, like there's like.

The.

Greek and Roman explosion where there's lots of stuff going on.

And then there's, you know, you have like the the Renaissance and you have the, well, the Reformation.

You have like even things that in the 1200s and the thirteens and hundreds, there's stuff coming up in history, but there's sort of his time like.

4:38

You know, we're we're, it's just sort of the middle, the middle time where there's just not a ton of records and I think it's largely interpreted that there just wasn't really a lot interesting to say in those times like there was.

Well, you have also the collapse of the the Western Roman Empire at that time kind of leaves a vacuum in its place.

4:56

Yeah, yeah.

And you know, the barbarian hordes came down and sacked Rome for the last time.

And so then you had the splitting of Rome into Eastern.

Constantinople, which was second Rome, like they literally was an empire that had two two capital cities.

So they moved the capital city, more or less, from Rome to Constantinople, and that continued until.

5:16

That was the Holy Roman Empire.

No, not yet.

That's when the Germanic stuff, this is, this is the, this is the direct lineage from, you know, Caesar and Augustus and everybody else, you know.

So they were very aware of their lineage.

And yeah, the Eastern European Roman Empire was a was a Greek speaking Roman Empire.

5:34

They certainly thought of themselves as Romans.

Like they said they did not think of themselves as, you know, classical Greeks in that sense.

And the Western Roman Empire, you know, was where it started, the Roman Empire.

And they have around 300 and something a D that's when they started.

5:49

They realized in order to have control the expanding nature of the empire, they needed to have a capital city that was more centrally located.

So they moved it to Constantinople.

This way you could.

Sit on the bus for straits to control Europe and Asia from 1:00 central location.

And as such there was less money and let's just say care coming into the original Rome in Italy and with the successive waves of tribes coming down, eventually you know they just got taken out.

6:17

But the Roman Empire proper continued right through until 1400.

People don't know this.

Like Roman Empire kept on going to like 14180.

Right, Yeah.

Very long empire, yeah, it was the Eastern Roman Empire.

Yeah.

And so in that vacuum is where you get what happened.

6:35

Then the dark gauges when they roam proper and the West collapsed.

Right.

Yeah, Yeah.

So just thinking back to my history and there's a book series that I've always wanted to read, which is.

It's one of those things I would imagine you'd get as a Christmas gift or something because it's like this is the decline of the Roman Empire, the fallen decline or something like that by author named Gibbon.

6:58

And it's this massive, like compendium of books that is like apparently a really good.

It's sort of the definitive history of what happened in those times.

I've always been interested, but it's like, you know, I just sort of remember all I know is from, you know, what I've learned in school and stuff like that, but like just trying to get it so you had.

7:16

Caesar was around like, what, 56 BC or something?

Or 56 AD?

He died or 26 AD or something.

Somewhere around there.

Yeah.

But then you had like Octavian Caesar, and then it kind of grew.

And then I think you got into the, the, the.

You know the other emperors that were kind of not as well, I don't know when was Marcus.

7:33

Really not.

Yeah.

I think they call him the last good emperor.

I think there was a.

There's like 5 good session of five, yeah.

But the point being is that the, you know, the Dark Ages really just came out of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

And and and 6th to add to that the Eastern Roman Empire with Christianity you know you can say that the they kind of felt like they had the final revelation so they didn't need to be as a.

7:59

Industrious with their philosophy and science anymore, you know, we have we have the revelation and you can say that then sense Christianity shut down a lot of the intellectual thinking like the philosophical schools and Athens and that they were just the books were I wouldn't say burned but put away for a very long time.

8:14

Like we got this.

Now we.

Got this we.

Figured it out.

And so that was, that was the more, you know, the changing nature of it, right.

So yeah, they wouldn't have thought of themselves as like classic Greeks.

They were Romans that spoke Greek, and that artistic and literary lineage was really kind of just severed through Christianity.

8:37

Interesting.

So then you have this gap, right?

Not that the things were going on, but they weren't as robust, intellectual, artistic, creative as they were even 1000 years before.

Yeah it's some So even if we take a little step back I I wonder if you know the the when I think of sort of the barbarian hordes kind of like.

9:05

Basically coming into Rome like proper and you know, the I think is the Germanic tribes, there's a lot of.

Yeah, the Franks.

There's quite.

A few, yeah.

So is that my thinking has always been OK.

That was because Rome got too big.

Got too.

You know, I think of emperors like Caligula were just very decadent, very like, you know, I think I've read something somewhere recently where it was like something like one in three Roman citizens at some point were actually unemployed.

9:35

There was social welfare and whatnot to there too.

Yeah.

Yeah, could very well be.

So I did.

I didn't prepare in that aspect.

I've, you know, I've always loved this part of history for like 20 plus years, right?

And sometimes I really know it, sometimes I don't.

Yeah, yeah.

No, well I I just my just in my mind that's what I understand to be is like there was just sort of a degree of opulence and a degree of like.

9:56

Like, we've got a lot of money to go around.

We're Rome and there's kind of a lackadaisical attitude.

Like you didn't get that, like bloodthirsty kind of Caesar like.

For sure.

And and then there was a, there was a, you know, basically when they did move the capital to Constantinople and it's been regarded sometimes that Rome proper Rome in Western, in Italy just kind of became a backwater.

10:21

It wasn't being invested in, it wasn't being maintained.

So it wasn't like the.

The tribes took down Rome at its height, You know, like all the centurions and we know what we're doing, They were, they were in a state of degradation.

Interesting when they got taken down.

Yeah.

So, you know, the enemy could smell blood in a sense.

10:38

And then you know, Justinian and, you know, the last emperors there and and they were emperors in in Constantinople.

They were criticized a lot for being a little insular, too, because they had the most amazing city walls that basically then they could just hide behind their walls.

And I don't know, there was a huge number of like attacks that they they repelled over.

10:55

Centuries and centuries and centuries.

So then it actually kind of, you know, that kind of changed the whole nature like confidence expansion, you know, it just kind of became more like a let's just hold on and maintain.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting when you look at the history of warfare and you have, you know, it's like, let's build some walls and then it's like, oh hey, and then it's like let's build these siege weapons and they get catapults and that like.

11:19

Trebuquets and the and and then just kind of it's just this constant battle between like, OK let's get better fortifications, let's get castles, let's get moats, let's get and then you have this battle and you just see it now playing out with like, you know nuclear weapons and drones and like and stuff like that and.

11:37

You could argue, I can see the reason for much of the civilized world almost wanting Constantinople to finally collapse, because as long as it was there, it was sort of impeding.

A lot of potential growth, even though it was sort of the the bearer of the light, you know, it used to be, but it wasn't anymore.

11:55

But it's really saddening because you know, obviously it's there's so much potential.

So a lot of people think too when the fall of Constantinople happened and these are more just rumors.

But the educated class then moved.

They didn't move east because they were going to find for too many open ears.

12:11

For that they moved Westerly, and by moving westerly they took the books of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, the.

Greek tragedies and all the literary works and they went West and then from there you actually get Renaissance, which is just the word for rebirth, rebirth of classical ideas, right.

12:30

So the fall of Constantinople actually marks the beginning of the Renaissance and I think they're they're very much linked, even though they happened in different places.

Ironically, then Constantinople became a province in Greece, became a province of the Ottoman Empire and.

12:46

They, as such, missed the very renaissance, which they were responsible for. the Renaissance happened outside of the Ottoman Empire's territories, right?

Yeah.

So imagine that.

Like, these are your ideas, but they actually get reborn in a place that is not your own.

13:02

Yeah.

And you have to, like, be systemically repressed for 400 years.

You know, It's quite, quite something.

Yeah.

But maybe it's just destiny.

It was meant to happen.

So that's how we got out of the Dark Ages.

But yeah, that middle period, that middle period, you know, I don't.

This is where I get a little sympathetic to Did they consider it dark themselves, living at that time, you know?

13:22

Yeah, I think that was it as.

Gloomy as we portray it, you know.

It's hard to This is one of the problems I have with us.

Like for example, even in this are we in a Dark Ages or are we going into a Dark Ages?

I think it's hard to kind of identify where you are in history while you're in that place in history, right?

13:37

Like maybe they were, you know, if they were influenced by a lot of.

Christian thought or religious thought, there might have just been this whole idea of, you know, they might have been more content, right?

Like, who knows?

And they just didn't produce a lot of sculptures, so we don't know much about them or?

13:55

Going back to what you said earlier too, but the decadence of Rome and Caligula, Nero and some empires that weren't the best.

But I'm sure that was just part of the times as well.

You.

I'm sure you've heard the expression like hard times create strong men, strong men create good times.

I.

14:11

Good times create weak men.

I think that's where we're sitting at now, yeah.

We're definitely at that stage.

And then weak men create hard times.

Yeah.

And that's the part where I'm bringing into today's show.

I'm like, I think that's where we're slowly potentially slipping into a dark age.

14:28

Right.

I I can see that it's.

Human nature, yeah.

It's just a cyclical human nature thing.

Would you say though that this?

Yeah, so that's what I was going to say is, so is this just inevitable?

I mean, well, it's not technological progress like I think you can, like you can decouple technological progress from the nature of man, right.

14:45

And I think we're building now weak men because we've had good times.

So is this is this cyclical sort of aphorism where it's like?

The strong men create good times and etcetera, etcetera.

15:01

Is this just inevitable like or is there something about the human human nature that is it makes it that we will inevitably reach some sort of a peak and then become lazy or decadent or whatever and kind of miss the forest for the trees until we slip into apathy and get so far?

15:20

History would say yes, yeah.

Maybe we can break away from it now.

You know, so that's a open-ended question.

I don't know.

We have our knowledge.

It's not just one country anymore, right?

So we may be experiencing some part of this cycle here, but other parts of the planet aren't right?

15:37

So the and we all have to interact through globalism and whatnot.

So maybe we're you could argue we're only strong as our weakest link, or the stronger parts are holding up the weaker parts.

Right.

So is your idea that this is a global phenomenon like we are all entering a dark age, or is this Western?

15:53

Countries.

At the onset, I would have said Western countries, yeah, but you can probably, if you were to dig it deep into like, where is it?

Like north-south Korea, I believe, maybe even China.

They started a program to start trying to emasculate.

16:10

Is that the right word?

Emasculate men more because they were getting too feminine.

Did you not see, you know, the social media stuff?

About that, I think it probably.

Would the haircuts, the body types you know, like?

I don't think China is doing that.

Yeah, I can't remember.

Maybe not, but South Korea perhaps, right.

And because it becomes like an issue in society and and like the actual running governments, like we're not creating the people we need to push our country more forward.

16:33

Right.

You know, yeah.

And I say that as an artsy person.

You.

Know, like, yeah.

It's a certain it's nothing to do with like the size of.

It's your like your.

Eternal fortitude, you know, and how to handle the hard times.

Well, we're not.

16:49

We're not.

We have moved away from a personal responsibility.

It's all about like social responsibility now.

You know, interestingly, I'm sort of going through a period of my life right now where I'm having, I'm sort of facing I guess for lack of just existential challenges or whatever, I would say it where it's.

17:12

And I don't necessarily want to go into more detail, but I would say that I what has been occurring to me recently where I'm like because I'm having a really tough time with it and I'm having a tough like sort of getting past it and it's like like when will it get better?

When is this going to just that with the situation I'm dealing with.

17:29

But then I, you know, I, you know, I think of like the the men who stormed the beaches on Normandy.

I'm reading this great book right now, which is actually a firsthand.

The account of like, it's taking the reports of people, what soldiers said and it's compiling them all into this almost like a it's almost fictionalized.

17:45

Like it's almost like it's just like and then you know it's it's written in such a way that it seems fictionalized.

And yeah, I can't remember the guy's name, but it's but it's but it's really good and it really is impactful.

Like you read about the paratroopers coming down, and like, you know they would.

18:01

They would, you know, because before they stormed it, they needed to make sure they secured some bridges behind enemy lines.

So they would send some paratroopers in.

And like there's this one part where this church is on fire and it's sucking the paratroopers into this church.

So they get hung, but you know, and they're like burning alive and everything and you're like and these people are like and then they talk, you know, when they go.

18:20

When they went into Omaha Beach, it was like just a slaughter.

Like it was like they came on and there was there was no what they were supposed to do is you know, and I won't go too long about this, but like.

They're supposed to bomb the beach beforehand so that well to try to kill some of the the fortifications but also to to create like craters and things so so the soldiers when they came in, they could like hide and stuff like that but like an Omaha beach they just missed it.

18:45

Like the bombers didn't hit the you know the area.

So they, the soldiers came in, they looked and they're like, this is like pristine beach with these like guns and everything.

They're like and then you just have to go and so like and they all the first one, they would jokingly call it the suicide.

They were joking before they laughed.

19:01

They're like, oh, we're the suicide wave because we're going to be the first ones there.

And but they all, they literally all died like that first wave of people.

So you're like, you know Can you imagine like like you know the stuff I'm dealing with, you know, very much fails in comparison to that.

19:17

But but I'm finding it, but I'm finding it such a crisis and I'm like and I'm thinking to myself like is this what am I so you know spiritually weak that this is what's.

You know, I'm hung up on this, whereas like, I look back at like I.

Guess it's all relative too.

I guess, but and I guess that's the problem is that we, we just haven't had any kind of major crisis.

19:35

I mean, you want to call Covet a crisis, but like, there hasn't been anything where we're where we've really had to, like, look deep inside ourselves and be like, OK, what kind of a man am I?

Would you say that was due to a lack of previous crises in your life?

19:51

Possibly.

I've had a fairly privileged life like and.

But not great.

I mean, I've, you know, I've had some, you know, issues throughout the life.

But like, I'm kind of like anybody, right?

So it's kind of setbacks.

Yeah.

So it's like, I think that there is, I think that there's a point now where I'm like, OK, it's time to sort of like, you know, I'm of the age where it's like I really have to.

20:14

I, you know, and I it's funny, like I did this list of principles of everything and I'm like, who am I?

And I really did.

I really did a lot of thinking about it, like you know.

And and I'm sort of ready ready to make that change now and I've been changing behaviors related to this and like and it's it's hard with a lot of it because it's a lot of it has to do with like you know without getting too you know personal or whatever and or also going on too much about it.

20:37

But it's like just be like a diary session like to your diary here's what I think.

But I think.

It's wonderful.

This is how we work stuff out, yeah, Yeah.

But it's it's really like like, I'm really starting to think like it's like the near death experience.

Like, I feel like it's like if everybody just had a near death experience, they would just be like okay, like now.

20:57

Have you ever walked around a hospital?

For a day, not on.

Purpose.

Take a walk.

You can walk in and just look in As you walk through the hallways, just look in each and every room cuz usually the doors are a little bit open and you'll see those depressing colors.

They're never happy, no, you know.

And you'll see people of their robes not totally tied perfectly in the back and family standing around and young children and kind of stoic, somber faces, you know, like, and then just realize you can walk out of there and go across the street and walk into the mall, right.

21:26

Right.

And then be even more depressed.

Yeah, you know, but you know, like you're just you're free.

Yeah, yeah, they're not.

You know, unless you're giving birth, everybody that walks into that building is going for bad news.

True.

Yeah, you know, like more or less, You know what I'm saying?

It's such an interesting.

21:41

It's not good.

Yeah, it's well, I guess plastic surgery or something, but I see what you mean.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, like it's and just if you want to like just have the quickest, cheapest way of just like a reality check, cuz there's nothing more real than your physical health, you know, mental and physical of course, But you know what I'm saying?

Like you just walk in like you can walk out.

21:58

They can't today.

I know.

And you just, it's like, maybe that's a good exercise to do actually.

Like, why have you done that?

I know.

But I have been in hospitals and left felt like, it's like, wow, like I felt like Mary Tyler Moore when I came out.

Like I just throw my head up and feel that every.

Time.

I feel like amazing, you know?

Like how is this possible and there will come one day?

22:15

I'll be back there and I won't be.

Yeah, I will be that.

Person My time is coming, but it's not today.

Yeah, that's a good, good way to sum it up.

And that's The thing is that I I feel like people, or at least me needs to realize that it's it's not today, you know, and like I have problems, but they're not to that level because if you get to that level, it's like I mean and not to say that I mean there's still there's things beyond that like I believe in God and everything.

22:41

So it's not that it's like that's like you're, you know, it's just the end of the road or anything, But like you, you've reached a different plane at that point.

You're like you're worried your concerns are not necessarily, you know what you're going to be doing on the weekend or whatever.

But like, I think that there is, there's a real reckoning that kind of has to happen in a person to be like, yeah, maybe you call it a midlife crisis or whatever.

23:03

It's like this shake.

You have to have be shaken and be like, no, no, this is all real.

Like this is all, like this isn't a dress rehearsal.

Like this is all happening.

And like, you know, you're you're like you said it's like it's not today.

So what are you going to do today?

Well, I think one of the key factors too is just to know where you are, like you're saying where you are in your life and to do the.

23:23

Quote UN quote appropriate things for your age group.

You know, like right when you're in 18/19/20 you should be acting like an 18/19/20 year old.

I don't you see in the news.

Was it yesterday, the two young students that threw the tomato soup on the Van Gogh painting?

Yeah, yeah, I was.

23:38

Really.

You know, like I I don't like it, you know?

And I have a I'm doing some research on climate change and I just wanted to understand, I realized I need to take 6 to 9 months to figure this stuff out because I just can't read headlines.

But you know, the anarchist of me kind of enjoys the, you know.

The big finger to the middle finger to the system at the same time too.

23:55

I just respect art too much to do that.

You could have done it perhaps in a much better way too.

Yeah, well, apparently there was some glass on it, but like, I know what you mean.

And honestly, and it also felt a little contrived to me as, I mean, I don't know, but just I don't trust rebel kids these days.

I don't believe it's.

Genuine Have the rebels become the new?

24:12

Have the rebels become?

Have they been usurped and have they become the new establishment?

Right, right.

Am I being tricked in a sense.

Like, what am I looking at here?

Because it's very like, I feel a lure.

I'm like, yes, burn it all these corporations, you know, the sort of thing.

Yeah.

So my point being to that is that.

24:28

But at that age, that's the sort of thing you should probably feel like, you know, like it's your chance.

It's your world.

You want to make the biggest impact.

And at 40 and at 50, those those goal posts change.

But why?

Well, I'm just not not to digress, but like, why Van Gogh painting?

Like, why wouldn't you go to McDonald's?

24:45

Or why wouldn't you go to like some big corporations?

It's a beautiful it's Earth.

But that's I don't know like ever.

Like, I do have a problem with that because I love history.

And like, I wouldn't say I love art, but like, I can appreciate it.

And I it's like that's like, you know, pissing on like a sunset or something, you know what I mean?

25:02

Like.

Yeah it is pretty punk ass though.

Like I don't mind the but, but I mean just from I don't want to get the climate change at all.

But I I did read an article I had posted from 2018 in the Guardian and like it's only going to be moisture.

Today 70% of all greenhouse emissions are caused by the top 100 companies.

25:20

So really if we want to get to like fixing the planet in terms of that go after the damn companies and go after me.

What did I do wrong?

I got up on use what's available in front of me and I'm pretty careful about it.

You know what I mean?

Like I don't need an individual carbon footprint tracker.

That's pretty dark ages.

They can put a wristband around me and tell many sandwiches I'm supposed to eat today when the the 70% of the greenhouse emissions come from the top 100 companies.

25:42

So I would say their anger is misplaced.

Go after those damn companies or the politicians that allow those companies to create such a thing.

And by supporting this type of thought, it is a dark ages move because you're completely going and deciding on an emotional rather than a logical and reason reasoning based approach.

25:59

Yeah, very much like.

Is that so there we kind of segue back to Dark Ages, cuz I think that actually if you didn't analyze it, that is you're misplacing your allocation of your resources in the wrong places.

I would say just as a quick rejoinder that the the top 100 companies are providing services.

26:12

And if you do that continually, you'll be slipping backwards and the time and the media that goes into this is not going to be doing anything to fixing the planet.

So that's.

26:30

So like somebody would have to pick up, like you can go off like, first of all, they're probably more likely to have more stringent sort of greenhouse gas captures or whatever because they're looked at by regulators more often.

And those services that they're providing are still going to be having to be taken up.

26:50

Like for example, an energy company like you still have to have energy.

So like you could say that they, you know, Shell or whatever is creating a bunch of greenhouse gases.

But it's like, OK, well do you want energy?

Because like, like so.

Sure, sure, sure.

But OK, I know exactly.

I get what you're saying.

27:05

We're all using it, so we're all right.

It's easy to say, like all these bad companies.

It's like explicit to a different degrees, but you know, just being a simple guy, go after the 70%.

Why go after?

Why spend your resources on the 30%?

Well, it's probably because it's behaviors that need to change in a in a stop us or.

27:24

Even purchasing such companies to begin with, yeah, I totally agree with that's the wrong way to do it.

You can't force somebody, or you shouldn't certainly be able to force somebody to do anything, really.

Which countries are these 100 companies?

You know, is it even in my country?

If so like you know like Amazon 37,000,000.

27:39

Yeah, like I mean some of these companies are just like and I can see like you think of Amazon like what are they taking into consideration like the logistics cuz then you're like OK, so they're sending their trucks, the trucks pollute, their they're packaging pollutes like they're whatever like sure at all like at the AWS centers pollutes like cuz of all the energy.

What kind of imagery do we see during the lockdowns?

27:56

You know, look how green the world is.

Meanwhile, other things getting shipped by Amazon, right?

Right, Right.

But you know, well anyway but there's so many little like I'll try and keep on top because I think I'm probably.

But let's go back.

Let's go back to you for a SEC.

So like.

The changing of the you know is it.

28:12

Maybe you just need to decouple from the material.

No.

I think what it is, is like maybe like, but I would say that I felt over the last few years this kind of building and it's like it's, it's not.

I could kind of put my finger on it but not really.

It was like this.

28:27

Like, it's like life is a dress rehearsal.

I guess it would be the best way to put it as a little corny.

But like where that would be really my mindset where it's like this, you know, well, tomorrow I'll do this, Tomorrow I'll do that.

And then and then it's like you just the years go by and you realize, well, I didn't do that and I'm still haven't done that.

28:47

Like I, you know, I think of, you know, writing another book and everything like that.

And it's like it's like, you know, I've like my book was published 10 years ago.

You know what I mean?

Like it.

So it's like then it's like, well, and I haven't really done anything since, like writing wise.

And that's, you know, ostensibly my passion.

29:03

So it's like, you know, what am I, what have I been doing?

It's like I'm not working in India.

Oh, for sure.

For sure I have one.

It's probably going to be about this the last, like, you know, 10 years really and like.

But it's but the problem is action, right?

29:18

And it's the problem is that like.

This motivation instigate action, cuz that's what people like.

I'm lacking the motivation but there's been some research that says it's actually action.

You do the action first, the motivation comes second.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it because it.

29:34

I can see that like that because it's it's easy to talk about things.

So I would have been doing the last couple weeks.

So I sort of, like did up my list of 10 principles.

I'm like OK and I really really thought about like I've been thinking about it for a while I but I finally wrote it down and like defined it and everything and like even as I was doing I'm like this is exactly what I shouldn't be doing because this is an action.

29:52

This is just like making a list, but it's like but you had to have a framework for sure and so now I'm like you know what no matter what.

I have to follow these 10 things and like, you know, there'll be some little slip ups here and there, but really this is the the, the skeleton of what I need to always remember these things and almost go over it like a prayer every day.

30:09

And to be like, this is who I am, this is who I am because I I know that that's who, certainly who I want to be, right?

Like.

And so for example, one of them is like, you know, live, live like you're going to die soon.

So it's like within five years because that's the sweet spot, right.

So it's like so and that's about like taking action.

30:27

It's about like so anyway, so I was doing it and I'm like, you know, I, I run for example.

But I would say like, you know, there's a point where I was training for marathon and I would very religiously do it really committed, but I would say and even 2019 really committed.

30:42

But since COVID, it's been like I'll go, it'll go a couple times a week.

Is different now though it is, but it's like it's always easy to be like I'm not going to go today, but it's like you have to the end of the day, you have to go.

You have to do it like and you have to.

That's another one of them has to do with discipline of my principles, where it's like like, it doesn't matter what your excuse is, you have to do it like unless you're like dying or something or you have something very urgent, like obviously some stuff comes up.

31:07

But like, this whole like, oh, my stomach doesn't feel 100% or like this whole because you know what?

Every time that I might, I'm not feeling 100%.

I go for a run.

I don't think I've ever had a time where I haven't just felt better after.

Oh yeah.

You never come back feeling worse.

Yeah.

So it's like, it's things like that where it's like enough of the excuses, you know?

31:26

And it's like like these kind of like, I don't know, like, I like stuff like, I mean, I don't go on my phone a lot, but I do play chess on my phone.

So it's like, but I don't really play it.

I sort of have never advanced.

Got better?

I'm sort of it's still the same level.

31:42

So I'm just like randomly playing these games and there's times I find myself doing it.

I'm like, oh, like I still got a, you know, there's still like 10 people waiting for me to play.

So I guess I'll do this.

And it's like, why am I bored doing this?

Like this is like why?

You know I don't have to do it.

You know when.

You think about like all the time wasted as the I don't mean you're a young child, but just time wasted playing video games.

31:59

Yeah, colors on a screen that you move around.

Well, yeah, true.

But some of it is enjoyment.

Like if you're genuinely getting enjoyment out of it, then it's like, sure, I think that's.

Something you know, how much did anything?

It's the everything in moderation, yeah.

I think there's a point where it's like you you you have to be able to know the difference between whether you're enjoying something or whether it's easy.

32:18

And whether it's beneficial or just entertainment, yeah, like if you're watching a show, if you're watching some show that you're really into and it's really good, then watch the show.

But if you're watching it because like I, you know, I, I, I know somebody who, and I also know that he listens to this.

32:34

So I mean we shouldn't say this, but like I know somebody who, you know, will watch TV shows and he, he goes through this whole list of TV shows that he'll watch, but he doesn't even enjoy it like.

Or he's like there's been times where he's like, yeah, it's okay.

I'll finish it now or whatever I like.

But if you don't like it like or if you don't like, if you don't drawn because he's disciplined, you're going to be dead soon.

32:52

We're all going to be dead soon.

You know what I mean?

You need to like.

Yeah, You need to be disciplined about the right things.

Right.

Like anyway, so there's this whole like list of things and.

One of the worst things I thought Sorry to cut you up.

One of the Just to before you go beyond that, one of the worst things I heard as a slogan during the lockdowns was, you know, Netflix and chill.

33:12

That's the that's.

What I would tell prisoners of one of them is like, you know, stay in there, Cuba.

Yeah.

And like, come on, you know, 25 more years is Netflix and chill.

Don't worry about it.

How about like like you're to your point, you got two years off, let's say.

I get your ass.

Like you got like a sabbatical of sabbaticals.

33:27

Like, what do you want to do at this time?

Yeah, for me it was like a renaissance.

Like, obviously you don't know what's going on, but once you got a grip of the situation, get productive in the bubble that presents itself.

You made a lot of you.

You made a lot of use of the time.

And I was lucky, I know.

33:44

And I'm very lucky in the situation I was in and all these sorts of things.

But I think inevitably, most people, you could say you didn't have the commute no more.

So it's one hour in the morning, one hour night.

People had a little more free time, you know, So to utilize that time and not to Netflix and chill, right.

You know, learn a language, learn the martial arts, learn a wicked workout routine, you know.

34:03

Yeah, Just.

And you have two years to actually build this habit into your life.

Yeah.

Yeah, You know, that's amazing.

Well, it's just, it's just this idea that, well, it goes to the, you know, the the one principle where it's like of the 10, where it's like, you know, live life as if you're going to die soon because you will like you will die soon.

34:22

So it's like, I don't know, there's just so much of the world that is like interesting and it's so easy to just forget that it's like, oh, we'll do that tomorrow or I'll do.

And I know this is a little bit cliche or whatever.

And you know what?

I, I I hate to say, but like Tony Robbins, I I watched some of his videos and I've listened to him in the past or whatever.

34:42

And I know he's kind of like ridiculed a little bit or was so bombastic or whatever.

But the guy is a really intelligent guy and he's like, he's motivational.

Like I can listen to the guy like, like there's no wonder he's, you know who he is.

Like he the way he puts things and the way he's sort of like it's almost like this bootstrap to be like like this is what you need to do and and do it like and and you're gutless if you're if you don't.

35:07

Yeah, this.

Yeah, for sure, For sure.

I used to say, you know what I regret people used to say to me before we had moved to abroad and like, wow, that's really brave.

Like, no, actually not living your dream would be the brave thing because like, you do, like, I'm going to give up everything.

35:23

For like, to to do the safe route, like, that's me.

I was like, wow, that's no, no, no, I'm going to do it.

This was actually just the natural thing to do, like go and go, go challenge.

To live a life where you didn't challenge yourself would require more bravery than I'm competing.

35:39

But that's not bravery, though.

What?

Would be the right word for it.

Well, it's it's.

I I need to live my life.

I need to go forward.

Yeah, it wasn't like, I was like, it was like the most obvious thing.

It wasn't like, oh wow, what a risk you took.

And yes, of course it and I paid the price, but of course there's inherent risk.

35:54

But I never viewed, I've viewed like if I didn't do that and being more stoic and doing things in more disciplined Canadian way, let's say that would have entailed more what I would call bravery.

But then you would have been going against this is going against one of the other principles is like you have to know yourself and you have to like this is sort of principal one where it's like.

36:15

So going against knowing yourself to me is being brave because you're actually like challenging the very essence of what you are saying.

I'm not going to do that.

But that's, I mean that's I wouldn't call it brave.

I would call that like.

You're the word Smith.

I mean suicidal.

Well, I don't know about to you just said if you're gonna call me Wordsman, I'll think something better than that.

36:30

But the yeah, it's it's very like, well you're going, you're going against, if you're going against your it's sort of treacherous right.

Because you're like you're betraying yourself like you can't.

I was doing the non treacherous path, but that's the thing.

Yeah, you're well, you were, you were following your heart.

36:48

Intuition.

Your intuition.

Yeah.

Whatever you want to call that thing.

It's that that that's the most important thing And and you know, Shakespeare said and know thyself.

So it's like or to thine own self but be true, right.

So it's like as long as you're always doing what you know in your heart to be the right thing to do, you can't do.

37:06

Wrong.

So going back to Dark Ages, are we having that bread out of us now?

I think there's a lot more confusion now with a lot of because there's a lot of.

Are we talking about we instead of I collective versus the individual?

I think a lot of that is creeping in.

37:24

Yeah, You know, we don't have the John Wayne archetypes of lore or Rambos or what are the individual that Terry Fox is.

I remember.

What was it like, 1979?

It must have been very young And watching the always frontal shot of Terry Fox running.

Yeah, yeah.

And as a young child, I just said I didn't even cross my mind that this man was a victim of like a bad medical Miss Disease.

37:47

You know, he's like, he's like, screw this, I'm going and I'm going to live my life to its fullest.

And make a dream come true.

And perhaps that's the same intensity I had in my heart when I moved abroad.

You know, these little things as children, like, and really, they activate something in your brain or because maybe it's already there.

38:05

And like, I'll never forget that moment because that was a strong individual moment, right?

And he was doing it for the collective, but individually.

Yeah, you know.

It's it's an incredibly inspiring thing and I don't think we have, you know, even look at, like, you know, superhero movies today when it's always about the team.

38:24

You know, it's not, yeah.

It's not about the individual doing it.

It's funny, yeah.

Right.

And if you look at the creation of those characters individually, they all had some sort of pain that they had to overcome and they were very strong individuals as a result.

But now it's all about the team.

Well, yeah, I guess you can say like Wolverine, Batman and.

38:42

We and we romanticize them and we used to more, you know.

But yeah, I I think there's not as much that I think because of technology, it has just forced us to be more global in outlook, more sort of entwined with each other.

38:59

But I think it's also been a sense of confusion.

Like, I think that this idea of making sure you know yourself and where you're going and how you would distinguish yourself from others is really important.

And you have things like with social media and this whole, you know, how everybody is always trying to be, you know, one of the crowd like, like, oh, I got to make sure that I, I have the Ukrainian flag.

39:20

So it's like, you know, everyone knows I'm on the right side.

Like, I think, and get all your points for your social points or whatever.

Like that whole drama that goes on.

Like that's, you know, I don't think we really had that before.

Like we'd have, like things in high school.

But, like you didn't have that kind of carrying over into adult life, like where it was always important to put on that public face.

39:42

And I think people get confused about what's what their public face is and who they are inside because not enough people disconnect from all that and just think and say, OK, who am I?

Like, you know, not.

I'm not not saying that I did anything too different or whatever, like I'm one of the, you know, elite or whatever.

40:00

But I think it is important to kind of at least assess who you are and do a list of of principles that you think define you or have some way of doing that of analyzing your behavior and thinking to yourself like.

Is this a life I want to lead?

Who am I?

40:15

Am I achieve?

You know, honestly, I just more blunt, more brute force.

You just got to be inspirational and just do something with your fucking life and move forward, you know?

And just just like just just just you know, Wim Hoff, I go, how do you someone ask someone's like how do you get motivated to go into like the cold water every day?

40:30

Like, what do you tell yourself?

He's like, I don't.

I just do it.

Man, there's a certain point where the talk has to end and you just get into action.

For.

Sure.

And that's it.

Just get moving and you will figure out what is the right path.

Once you are moving, you try to do the perfect plan and lay it all out on a template on the screen.

40:49

There's just so many unknown variables that you and inevitably you're not in action, you're just writing.

So you need to write something.

But you know this sort of the urban myth like.

Greek restaurant Restaurant Tours would make up their game plan.

On the back of a napkin, all the two waiters were talking to one another.

41:04

You need to write something, but then you got to get the stuff moving right?

For sure, yeah.

And I catch myself because I can get to like details and like to write things down and hum and Haw.

And I remember one time too when we had our franchise operating abroad and I had all these homemade charts on Excel and I was, you know, creating all these this versus this category of sales and this versus this.

41:24

And at a certain point I stopped myself and I like.

If I'm looking at these charts all day long trying to figure out if things are good, it means things are bad cuz the good should just be obvious.

Yeah, right.

I shouldn't have to be assessing through this data looking for.

Well, I see we have more returning clients than new clients and that shows.

41:43

Forget it, man.

Like just just.

I mean, there's a moment for that and then you gotta blow past it.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the time you dedicated that kind of thing.

Like I I think that I've done lists sort of like this in the past or like other kinds of lists or whatever.

But it's been, you know, I'll dwell on it and I'll, like, go on.

41:59

And it's like, well, let's do port .44 B, like.

And it's like, you know, it's really simple.

Like it there's only a really a few things that you need to know to govern your life.

And then you have to do the things.

That really is the key is the action.

And like it almost to the point where it's like, you know, you go to a restaurant and you want to because I've had problems and quite indecisive when it comes to a lot of things.

42:22

So like, I'll go to a restaurant and I'll sit there and, like, I hate going to restaurants where they're like, the menu is like 20 pages.

And you're like, oh, man.

Like, I give up like, just whatever the most popular is And like, like, but if you go to a restaurant, there's like 5 things.

It's like, nice, Like, OK, I can, I can do that.

42:38

So.

They've, they've done the hard work and they've kind of made it more actionable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you ever go to, like, a Moxie's or one of these like, fusiony restaurants or whatever they are?

And like, there's just so many things like, oh, you want a salad?

You want a fajita, you wanna.

The larger the menu, the more frozen items.

Yeah, there's no way of keeping that many fresh items in the back, frozen items.

42:56

And also you know that the, well, chefs or cooks or whatever are not specializing in anything.

Like you don't go to get pasta like a Moxie's, like, you know what I mean?

But the going to these places and like just making a decision on the food item is more important than what it is you're going to order.

43:13

Like, it's almost like I now have to give myself a time limit.

Because I'm like, you know what, this is part of the whole, you know, the new, the new thing where.

Is what you loved about running.

Yeah.

Maybe it was like one of the most actionable things.

You know, you're really insightful.

You're really impressive sometimes.

Like it's you should have stuck with the psychology.

43:30

I like people.

I like all people, all shape, size, colors and all the weirdness of the planet.

I It's like writing a wild.

A mechanical bull.

And it's a wild ride being alive.

And you have to.

That's what for me, that's what really embracing diversity is all about, you know, Diversity.

43:46

Like, God damn it, like real diversity.

This person thinks completely opposite of me.

Amazing.

You know this.

Like going back to dark ages for just a brief second.

Like I feel like we're not having individual We are spending to your point here, a lot of time on words and not enough time on thoughts.

44:02

And they're very different things.

You know, like we have just so many words in the universe today and so many written things, and we're here, we are.

But in this two to three hours that we're talking, what really matters to me is how many.

Thoughts pop up.

You know, like how many, how do we push it forward and do we push something forward by having this conversation right.

44:22

You know, and to my detriment, that means sometimes I do, kind of.

Don't pay enough attention to words and vocabulary and enunciation and whatnot, cuz I'm really focused on the thought, you know?

So I think that's where running for you was amazing, cuz it was one of your most actionable experiences.

44:39

Yeah, it's like I have total control over.

I know that when I'm running I'm doing the thing like and it's not much the simple feeling.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

You detached yourself from your natural tendency to think through things a lot.

Cuz there's only so much to think.

Like I bought the right shoes.

I know my routine.

44:55

I know my calories.

Let's go right.

It's a short menu, yeah, basically.

It's not a long menu, right?

Yeah, that's cool.

So actionable within, would you say something like the lockdowns was something very like the antithesis actionable.

45:14

I can see where you're going with that, yeah.

Right.

Yeah, just absolutely freeze.

Put a pause on everything, right?

And I would argue doing something like a lockdown.

Was that the, was that a key marker and global society that it was the end of enlightenment?

45:33

Well, it was definitely a clear marker.

And it I think it was a time like it was sort of like the 9/11 of our of this generation or whatever.

Because you have that, you know that delineation point where it's like okay now everything's locked down and it's kind of like very different than it was the day before.

45:53

I think that some just trying to think of how in terms of the actionable it was.

Yeah, symbolically, sure I would.

Symbolically, yeah, of course.

Things were happening, but things weren't also Gdps of countries went down and whatnot.

46:09

I would argue that in terms of an end of enlightenment and lockdowns, that this was the moment that science became unhooked by market forces.

There was nothing scientific in any literature from any western country, at least that said, when facing a respiratory virus, lock down the healthy people, right?

46:35

There's a 2006 Canadian Pandemic Planning Guide and like, don't do that.

Like and if you do it for a very short period, like 10 days or something.

And we literally took.

All our accumulative knowledge scientifically and threw it in the fire.

Yeah, we had a burning book burning.

46:53

Burning science, Yeah.

You know, it was the first time in world history we locked down.

We quarantined the healthy.

Imagine, imagine that sentence.

We quarantined the healthy for the first time as because we had a scientific breakthrough, we knew this was the better way.

No.

Did it actually have a result on stopping the spread?

47:09

No.

I would say this is a key factor in the end of enlightenment.

Yeah, like I I think it it's hard to have the historical perspective while you're still in that part.

However, I can see that that you know, 10 years later, 20 years later, 100 years later, this might be that might have been a turning point.

47:30

And you're right there, there was a, there was a kind of, you know, panic response to what was happening.

Despite the fact that they had contingency planning for this, they decided to just go another route and be like, what should we do?

47:45

Exactly like CDC.

What should we do?

And based.

So the overwhelming impetus for these mandates was based more on faith than on reason.

Interesting, Yeah.

That is backwards.

That is dark ages.

That is Christianity replacing the philosophical schools of Aristotle.

48:03

Okay.

Well, let's let me push back then for the sake of argument.

I will say, though, that I think the argument would be made at the time They thought that because there was a contagious virus that it would be smart to keep people separated while the numbers went down.

48:27

Until what you reopen, Well, I don't think at the beginning they necessarily knew that it was going to be quite so tenacious, you know, and just kind of always be, you know, I think that well they were talking about the, you know, get the curve down or everything like that.

So I think that they didn't think that it was going to be quite so infectious and quite so like just sticking around for longer.

48:51

Two weeks to flatten.

The curve has to be the largest, the biggest bait and switch of the last 100 years and has no basis in science.

And it was sold to us full on well you but you should say, I mean it does have basis in science because the numbers did go down once they did that like once people were staying in their homes like the numbers went down.

49:15

Sure.

But first of all, it's not sustainable.

So that's why the pandemic planning guys is sure in a short term.

But with that going down comes huge societal consequences too.

So we can't just look at one metric also And if it's inevitable because that that amount under the curve, whether it's spread over a long time or a sharp peak, is the same number of infections.

49:36

You're just spreading out the total number of infections over a long period of time or over a short peak over a short period of time.

And one can argue you know when and what to do.

But the longer goes on, the greater the subsequent collateral damage is.

Well, they think they made a judgment call and I I'm sort of under I I agree with you.

49:55

But I I would say that I think that they made a judgment call that they didn't want they they didn't think they had the hospital infrastructure to support it.

If people, more people came in sick and then two.

Weeks going to rebuild the hospitals in general most people were following the advice of The Who and the and then and that and and I think if you're a politician especially these days in a in a Western society in a pandemic that you haven't had before you're like OK I don't want to mess this up.

50:26

So, like, I would rather have, you know, suffer from a poor economy for a bit than have, like, you know, millions of people die under my watch.

So it's like.

You know, if you go deep like economic health is, is public health like they really do.

They're they're immediately linked.

50:42

I agree.

I don't think we have strong leaders.

I think that's the problem.

I mean, we.

We're back to the.

Good times Being weak men, yeah, that's a good so.

Some people say, you know, even if you divert into like this Putin, Ukraine thing, which I really don't know much about, I don't want to get into it on the ground level like that, but it's toxic masculinity.

51:01

Like OK wait wait no, it's it's basically weak men you know and or weak weak morals you know and you don't you don't combat that by like well let's just all have then female leaders because men and women can be morally corrupt the same right.

51:18

You combat these moments, these leadership moments with stronger moral characters.

You know, I I I think, I think we're reaching a phase now where.

If it's no longer checkable, these if you want to speak up about the metrics that are going in a certain direction that you say we're causing more harm than good and we have centralized things like The Who and whatnot dictating to us how we run, we're having a that is another indicator.

51:47

Of Dark Ages, because you are having death by specialization, there's no more generalized knowledge.

You know, it's like, well, I say this and I say that and everybody's in compartmentalized in their own little silos and you're not looking at the overarching arc of what the damage is, right?

Yeah, that's what.

52:03

That's what the leaders supposed to do, you know, Like they're supposed to be that generalist.

Like they're supposed to represent the every man almost to some extent.

They have their specialists or whatever.

So is are we hitting dark ages?

Cuz we've had so much specialization in the last 100 years now that we've actually lost a bit of a big picture point of view maybe.

52:21

But I I think it's also just a case of it's like the incentives to the incentives for like good strong leaders to actually get into politics and start running for office are not there anymore.

52:37

Like you don't have, like you're always under the microscope.

Like people are stupid.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like nobody's interested in paying.

You know you if you say like okay, I've got a 10 year plan to pay down the debt and that involves like maybe more austere measures or like raising taxes or something.

52:53

People are not going to vote for the person.

So it's like, you know, you always have to window dress something for the for the morons, like really?

Yeah, yeah, we have, like, this is a little rant for me, but we have, like, the wielders of bad ideas.

Like as soon as as soon as people can't check something, the likelihood of catching an error goes up, right?

53:11

You can't.

You can't.

You're not allowed to check for something.

You can't talk about it anymore.

It's taboo.

You're stained.

That's only going to increase the likelihood of an error.

Yeah, right.

So that is another indication.

When we have this sort of, you know, Facebook Fact Check or you're banned off social media or YouTube, you're going to only increase the amount of errors because nobody can actually cross reference what's going on.

53:31

You're going to stumble into a greater decline intellectually.

That's not diversity.

You don't combat bad information by censorship, you combat it with more good information.

Otherwise, like you said, you're pandering to the morons.

Yeah, yeah.

What do you think of like Facebook?

53:53

The idea of like making these like massive technology companies, utilities as opposed to private companies I think or like almost not nationalizing them but like having some stipulation.

People mistaken me for right wing sometimes.

This is where a case where you need regulation.

54:09

That's not a right wing thing.

It's not a free market thing.

The free market may take you there eventually in 200 years, but by then we've destroyed ourselves.

You know, sometimes you have to interject with regulations.

I would agree they are In this day and age, the town square was a mechanism in which pre car, preautomotive era people would meet and it was really the social hub.

54:31

So having the right to protest in the town square was like, did you see what happened?

Because it was literally in your faces, but now they're all siloed.

Off into our little.

Boxes in the sky, these glass citadels of condos or really feel like prisons with just window dressed right.

You know, if you put cement and bars on them and said here's your cuticle of 600 square feet and $2200 a month in the air, you're like, what the hell are you talking about?

54:52

Right.

Step backwards as compared to a nice leafy cul-de-sac in a single detached house, you know.

But anyways, that's where the good people kind of want to Live Today.

What is?

What was your question again?

I just the idea of making companies like Facebook or Twitter.

55:08

Yeah, like so.

So in this age of where we're compartmentalized, I think you have, there's an argument to say that the structure of society is no longer based around the town square.

The town square today is certain media, social media platforms and as such have to be governed like the town square.

55:26

Right, like.

What you're gonna say you don't like, You don't like?

Bell Canada doesn't like Donald Trump, so they're not gonna deny him a telephone line.

Right, Yeah.

They're a private company.

We want you off our platform.

You know, like there's a certain point that it's a utility.

Yeah, right.

55:42

Yeah.

So I'm all for them based on the structure of society that we have today.

Unless you want to start putting town squares in every little suburb, which would be really cool and I think we should actually have, it creates a sense of community.

But in absence of that, yes, social media should be considered.

55:59

A public utility.

Just like the Internet now.

Has become like a public utility.

But you know what the funny?

Human right to have Internet, yeah.

So you're gonna have the human right to have Internet, but you can't read what you want to read on there, right?

Yeah, no, I but you know I would wonder though so say they are utility like what happens when you have somebody who cuz what they'll say is so then what somebody can just like you know start a like just because there's.

56:26

Things can't promote hate as a platform, but that's and there's laws for that already.

Like if you write on Twitter, I hate X&Y social group, you have the right to be banned.

That's that's you can't say that in public, you know, So OK, so I have a question because this came up where on there's a guy who he was, he was running for a part office and I think national office in Canada or some party that was like, you know, whatever.

56:55

They got the requisite signatures.

And he was a leader of the party and he said something like we have to get the Jews out of Canada, like like something along those lines.

And he was like obviously condemned like his speech.

Yeah.

So.

Well that's.

So that's my that's my question is like is it?

57:14

We have laws though for that stuff.

OK, but.

But but how?

How do you distinguish between something like that and?

Because what the tricky thing then gets to be.

What's this legal stuff?

This is where you know the lawyers have to.

Figure this out.

See, this is where I'm a free speech absolutist, where I I think that like, I obviously don't agree with that, but it's like, but you have to let people sort of like let this guy say what he wants to say.

57:40

Like it.

Because if you start getting to and then you know, people can decide whether that's right or not, or whether they agree with it or whatever.

Well, I think.

Verbage matters too.

There's ways you can argue, I think, in a more intellectual manner.

Like you know, immigration laws need to be aligned with metrics that allow cultures that are more likely to integrate in A.

57:59

Short term, better way, and yadda yadda, you know you can get around it because you're not specifically naming any one person, but does that make it better or does that just conceal that the hate?

I think it makes it better because you have to admit no one.

If you're just always harping on one racial group, then that's racism.

58:15

Yes, if you're saying the way, it might be racism.

But I'm like, I don't doubt that that's racism.

I just don't.

What I don't like is this idea that some things you can't say and other things you can, and that that barrier or that like boundary is sort of illdefined because like hate speech actually I think is inciting violence toward like another.

58:37

So it's like technically.

I'm pretty, you get me wrong.

I'm pretty.

If someone wants to scream fire in a in a movie theater, I'm like, well, then they usually say, well, everyone just runs out.

Will you have a bit of personal responsibility to turn your head a little bit and see if there's a fire?

You know, I agree with you, but I think there's just.

58:53

The verbage matters, and I think there needs to be a wider breadth with you, but there's still going to be some limits somewhere on there.

But where they are exactly, the problem is, is the some limit somewhere on there because like if then you have like Donald Trump getting banned from Twitter, like should he be reinstate like then it just becomes the same question that we're dealing with now like that.

59:11

I think I saw Salman Rushdie say something to this effect where he's like the soon as you put the I believe in his free speech but and I believe in free speech the but, but.

The problem is who decides the butt, where the butt goes, how long that line is, you know, that sort of thing.

59:27

And that's a very tricky 1.

To be sure.

I I would just put it at a very like a very, very high breadth of free speech.

But there will be some limits.

But nothing like today like you put, you can literally put today on Facebook a British Medical Journal study and then Facebook will be like, yeah, that's been fact checking.

59:50

It's a hoax.

Yeah, I love the fact that Facebook's fact checking bill.

Gates is, you know, funding lead stories, which are the independent fact checkers for Facebook, because he doesn't want to have that sort of story come out.

So that's the suppression of data.

You know, that's.

So I think it's.

I think it's really.

1:00:05

You have to be careful with it, but I'm with you.

Like generally speaking, we will get to better truth if we're allowed to speak more.

If you don't have free freedom of speech, you don't have freedom of thought.

And I think that there's less free speech today than there ever has been in my lifetime.

1:00:20

And I'm seeing around people going back to words versus thoughts, a decline in the quality of thinking, right?

And I think it's directly tied to the lack of free speech.

People self edit themselves all the time now because of social media and they're afraid to put an I like on something or put their two cents in.

1:00:36

Even if they totally agree with you, why?

Cuz they know this can be.

Societal repercussions.

That is like a centralization, not a diversification of thinking that is limiting free speech and therefore free thought.

And it's gonna cause us to regress into, like, our dark ages, right?

1:00:52

Where like, only the Pope can tell you if the world is flat or not.

Yeah.

Who the hell are you?

You know?

And if you spoke out at the time that, like, off with your head, you know what I mean?

Right?

Are we moving slowly in different terms, but in that direction where, like, the good person just simply won't speak out?

1:01:08

Or are we gonna, you know, this would be like, a little too far down the line?

Are we gonna eliminate the word I, I just I is juxtaposed against we and we is what it's all about.

So your word just even I is offensive.

Right, right.

Right.

Like if you can, you can take that logic to.

1:01:24

That's where it's going to go.

If you give it 10/15/20 thirty years, yeah.

One of the things I did on my little vacation a few weeks ago was reread 1984.

And I forgot how good that book was.

Like it is, and it is harrowing, like how the totalitarian, like just, you know, the whole doublespeak thing and it's like, you know.

1:01:48

I thought it was nonsense as a child.

Yeah, but it really does echo like it.

Like, it's really like, you know, I was thinking how we were talking about the hate speech and everything.

I was saying, OK, well, what about the pandemic where it's term, you know, I think the argument would be made like, for example, so with like companies like Facebook or whatever.

1:02:07

The argument is, well, we don't have time to coddle like misinformation or people like the free speech of people who don't know what they're talking about.

This is a serious thing.

We don't want more people to die.

So that's a pretty big, you know, argument to make.

So if you if you don't have that, this is where I say like if you have the absolute free speech versus some sort of like but kind of thing if you always have the but there's always room for somebody to say like.

1:02:37

Like, well, obviously we don't want all these people to die.

Like there's always some.

The but has no limitations.

Yeah, and I think that's the problem.

I think there it will always come off as you're doing it for because you're protecting somebody, so you have this culture.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The most, most.

Was it CS Lewis?

1:02:52

Like, the most terrifying form of tyranny is the one in which the Tyrant believes are doing it for the common good.

Because then they feel no actual remorse for the tyranny they're imposing on people, right?

That's the but.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's.

And I I think it's a real argument for like just like, you know, there's always going to be some moron who's going on about we got to get the Jews out of Canada or whatever, right.

1:03:13

It doesn't mean that they're, you know, Jewish groups shouldn't condemn them and everything like that.

Like they they get to say that as well.

But it just this is just somebody like you know?

People, if we have a society where people can't see that for what it is, then we don't even deserve to have a society.

1:03:29

You know what I mean?

Like we should be past that point by now.

So, like, if people are still following somebody who's spewing, you know, hate, then that's that should come out in the wash, right?

Like something I was going to ask you a question, but then I you know, like, could you argue that though if we had better free speech laws that World War 2 wouldn't have happened because would have prevented Germany?

1:03:53

From going the way it did, stopping Hitler from these rants, or this where I got Does the sophistication of a culture allow for such limitations?

And therefore they're almost inevitable?

And you have two choices to make either complete totalitarianism, we don't have speech, or you let the guy just rant.

1:04:11

I think that either way you're going to get people like you said, you can describe, you can design your argument however you want, like somebody like Hitler.

If he's going to have like, he'll he would just design it more cleverly, right?

Like there would be like a more nuanced way of presenting it to people, and they would.

1:04:27

The hate would still be there, and it might even be fomented more because of the repression of like you can't actually say this.

Let the like, let let the maniacs like, like shout their show from the rooftop so we all know who they are.

You know, to your point, like the unvaccinated in the last year and a half in Canada and most of the world have been like an immensely repressed and segregated group and their voices were completely shut down as you're gonna cure a granny killer, your anti science.

1:04:57

Like, just literally, through which they have been proven totally right in most cases.

And I haven't met too many people who didn't get the vaccine who regretted not getting the vaccine.

And that's their personal choice.

You know, like, just your choice, man.

Like, I'm not saying it's good, I'm not saying it's bad.

I'm just simply reading reports and telling you what the reports say You know, Never mind my $0.02 worth.

1:05:17

Yeah, it's.

We have to be so careful with all this.

Yeah, because it repeats itself in history.

We just went through it in 2021-2022.

I meant segregation in the name of the common good.

And we're willing to trample your neighbors in the name of of a freaking injection is against a disease that has like a 99 throw whatever number you want percent chance of survival.

1:05:39

Yeah.

Like what have we are we still like going back to are we just.

I think Douglas Murray called it.

I forget the name he gave for it.

But you know, we're the Saint George syndrome where you're.

Haha, I've got my sword, I see the dragon and I will slay the dragon and then after that you get all the social.

George in retirement, I think it was, yes.

1:05:56

And you get all the sort of Social Credit cuz look and then you start.

In the end, the final process, you're just waving your sword and ear at imaginary Dragons because there's none left.

But you're still looking for the social credit you once had.

You know, like it's as weird human nature thing that we saw completely come back out and how quickly, how quickly we could regress into a Dark Ages situation just like we did the last.

1:06:18

Year and a half.

Yeah, I it's not slow.

You're right and it and it you what's what's absolutely fascinating is how nobody ever thinks that like people look back at like for example the Nazis and it's always like like well, Germany, like what would they must have all been insane like are they you know how could they ever fall for this I would never fall for this like and you see the same thing playing out like not the exact same thing but you see similar thing, the similar thought patterns playing out like for example in 2020 where it's like.

1:06:50

Like, nobody thinks that they're the bad ones.

No one thinks that they're the ones that are ignorant.

No one thinks that they're the ones that are doing, you know?

But meanwhile, they're like, it's like the exact same thing.

It's like you're just repressing another group.

Like you don't see the parallel there.

It's like they don't see it until like years later.

It's usually this repression usually comes from the most benign and altruistic of slogans and words, right?

1:07:10

You know, like for the common good.

The young North Korean defector.

Do you know Yelmi?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I just saw this quote from her.

I'm going to try to get it mostly right.

But she was basically saying like what do you mean like we were told by we was so back in North Korea we were told by the leader at the time you know we'll give you a rice and meats do every night just give us your land, you know and we will provide for you.

1:07:36

We will end inequality, right.

And of course that didn't happen.

What you ended up doing is giving away all your rights.

And some people might disagree with this, but she's like in America, you say what's so wrong with inequality?

It means you actually have a chance to move up and make more right.

1:07:51

It actually is an indication the problem isn't inequality.

The problem is poverty.

What's happening to the pot of people at the bottom level?

They should still be looked after to a certain degree.

But the fact that some people have more than others shows that there's there's a lot of autonomy in your own personal decisions, right?

1:08:07

And it's not being dictated to from a centralized mechanism who used really benign words to try to.

Lure you in.

And I'm very, very, very skeptical of any kind of slogans, you know, like just going back to I, I just coming back to dark ages and and technology because I think we said always try to think like what we have so much technology, like technology and human rights, you know, very, very different things.

1:08:32

And you know, like digital, tyranny poses a much to me to a much larger threat to humanity than any virus.

Like, I'm willing to die to ensure the next generation has a free democracy to live in.

For me, that's that's the goal, not self preservation.

1:08:49

And I feel like even though we talk about this communal thing, everybody's really just talking about really protecting their own asses.

They don't want to catch a disease.

Yeah, but that's human I'm.

Willing to go to work and keep my business open and catch a disease if it means society keeps functioning.

1:09:05

Right.

Like it's sacrifice, but that's actually the weak component to my way of thinking.

You also but.

Front line worker could be the small business too.

But we're also talking about like the with COVID.

It's not exactly like, I mean people have died from it obviously, but it's like your odds are pretty good given your age bracket.

1:09:24

So like you're 100%, you're not like?

I wonder if you would make the same decisions if this was a 50% mortality.

No, the situation changes, I agree.

Okay so.

But even then, you can't hide in your house with a 50% for the next 10 years.

1:09:40

And just like I'm going to, like, do things digitally, it's going to be a moment.

But for the next generation, I'm going to have to have my Omaha Beach moment like, well, this is it.

You know, Like I just wait.

I'm not going to let the world be destroyed and have my children's future.

Because I was afraid to catch a disease that even a 5050 chance.

1:09:56

Yeah, if you knew your children gonna have a better life and it costed you a 5050 risk, you wouldn't take it.

I mean, I don't have kids, so.

Neither do I, but I'm just saying.

But all the children of the world are mine.

Like, I just, you know, I really care about the future, you know?

And that I would.

I would in a heartbeat.

I don't know.

Why am I?

1:10:11

I'm nothing like so, like, it's all about them.

They're the next.

They're the next group of.

Badge.

I don't know if I have that kind of altruism.

It's your World War 2 moment.

But it's.

But yeah, but I mean that's not something like if you have.

Yeah.

If it's a risk, then I take the risk.

I'm not going to go into certain death like the, you know, just to be like, so the next generation like if somebody put a gun in my head, it's like, you know, a million people will die or you can get killed.

1:10:34

I'd be like go for the million.

Like, I don't want to die, you know?

Like, I mean, I know that sounds selfish, but I'm just being honest, right?

We we don't.

We have a very good contrasting points of view, I think.

It's really good, but I don't.

I don't think this is disagree.

It's awesome.

I don't know if you necessarily know what you would do until that moment comes, right, like, I mean.

1:10:50

No, I'm nothing.

You can literally splatter me on the road.

I don't care about myself.

I'm.

Not, I'm not joke.

I know it's.

How do you?

How do you?

How do you know?

I really I don't care.

Now I'm nothing but I know my wife and I would feel exactly the same like just like you're alive but it doesn't mean anything cuz what matters more is a seeds to be planted and that's the world now is is as it is.

1:11:11

It's what's coming after that matters more.

So why would I put any?

I'm really detached from the material in that way, and it's not because I'm some sort of spirituality or something.

It's just if I want to make sure the common good actually grows to its fullest potential, this is the action I need to take now.

1:11:28

But how is what do you care about the common good?

I guess is like like because like once you're, you're.

Almost family on Earth.

I yeah, I mean.

I don't really agree with that.

Like, I mean, I to some extent, you know, it's like, you don't, I don't want any other human being to suffer, whatever.

1:11:45

But if it's like me or some random person, I don't know, like you get my family involved, it's a different story.

Maybe like in some circumstances, but like I, you know me or like 10 other people, it's like, no, I don't.

Know these people.

It's not the family even, although it pains me to say that.

It's it's the ideas and the potential of humanity must succeed and grow forth.

1:12:05

It's almost like the universe is beckoning it.

This is the why humans were put here.

And anything that stops us from from achieving that level of consciousness is wrong.

And therefore, if I need to take one for that in order to continue, it doesn't have nothing to do with my particular genes and those around me.

1:12:23

It's about the potential of humanity to do what it was supposed to do in this universe.

That's all that matters.

You know?

They never, I don't know, just me.

Yeah.

Well, I mean.

And I like material things.

I don't like some, like some, you know, position where like, oh, this guy must walk in a robe all day and not comb his hair.

1:12:42

Not at all.

But it's just that I am detached from it at the same time.

Interesting.

Like I I do.

I get the part about believing in something greater than yourself and knowing what the right thing to do is and following that.

I just.

I just don't think if it was put as simply as like.

1:13:01

You know, if if people were like, if somebody was OK, you know, say there's the Nazis, you know, take over and people are going off to war.

Because I thought about this a lot reading that book.

I'm like, OK, well, like, you know, say there's no conscription and you don't have to go, like, but you volunteer to go fight the Nazis.

1:13:19

And I I think in the moment I'd be like, yeah, I'll do it.

I'll go fight them.

And because I have like like.

That would inspire a passion in me.

But if you're leaving England in a little like landing craft and you're being shaken around by the sea and you're throwing up and you're like, Oh my God, wait a minute, what the hell am I doing?

1:13:39

Like I'm going to land on this beach and I'm going to be shot out with 88, you know, like these, like 88 mortars and it's like, and and and then you go up and you see the beaches pristine.

It's like.

I don't want to die like I don't like.

That's not but at.

That point you have to have decided prior that you're already dead.

1:13:57

Yeah, I guess you have.

To and it's the idea that your action will keep your your your death will keep that idea that you believe in alive.

I think it's also a military thing.

Like if you're in the military, maybe it's different.

Like I don't have faith in necessarily other people, like just by default, right.

1:14:12

Like, it's so it's like, you know, if I.

But if I was in the military, I was in a unit, I had faith in my commanding officer, then it's like, OK, like, I know that he's going to do the best thing he can.

To make sure that I don't die and if I die in the process and that's just the way it is, But I don't want to be just fodder for German gun of course.

1:14:28

But for me it's like whatever keeps the whatever political system let's say keeps the human spirit loved flourishing that I'll take that with as opposed to a mechanistic very technocratic approach to the world which may actually have better material results.

1:14:48

It for me, it's still leading in a direction that will not create, will not aid the reason why humans were put on the surf to begin with.

And that's the key focus Like I'll just divert back like social media like in this dark ages, you know like capitalism and the free market are powerful tools.

1:15:05

And you know, of course I support these ideas.

But Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, these companies are out of control.

Like they they're deciding now.

And this is where like the war parts coming in and it's happening in a different way in front of us.

You know, it's not like us versus Germany, but it's us versus these ideas, right.

1:15:23

And they're deciding now truth from fiction.

Like these decisions are being made by the at these companies, by young people who lack the wisdom, the courage, the compassion to be frank, the scars.

And they don't understand the implications of their product on the fate of our democracies.

They have no, no oversight, Jason.

1:15:39

And because because they get, because they donate richly to campaigns, they're like I was saying, they don't have this oversight, so they're not up to the task and they're failing us.

So for me, like, the enemy actually comes from within.

And This is why we're slipping back into dark ages.

This is, you know, Rome by large was defeated from within.

1:15:59

And we're seeing the same rot through social media, one of the many different places in our own democracies.

Right.

Do you think an argument though, against the Dark ages like?

I think if you look at it that way and with that perspective, I I would agree with you.

1:16:15

Like I think there's some real problems with censorship and the amount of power that some of these technology companies have and the lack of oversight and the lack of strong leaders.

And you know, however, I would contrast that with some of the stuff that's happening in the world now with like for example, you know, these MRMRNA vaccines.

1:16:37

You know just looking at something how you know they're going to be using it to treat cancer or they're testing they're running all these tests.

I have heard the other day the Chinese and this is a little bit scary I guess that they've developed well scary but also cool And also like it were there.

They ran a fusion reactor for like it was like the longest time like 17.

1:16:58

I don't know if it was maybe 17 seconds or 17 minutes.

I don't know what a long time.

But they they had the.

The temperature was up to higher than like four times the temperature of the sun like so it's like so but fusion is sort of the dream for clean energy, right.

So it's like you know we're really at a lot of points where technologically speaking we are hitting some high watermarks.

1:17:18

Will it be our undoing?

I think you know, it depends on what type of morality, whether it's run by strong men or weak men.

By that I mean morals and not necessarily gender, you know, and and that is a that is a function of our values as a society and the families that we raise and how we're raising our children.

1:17:40

Yeah, I I see.

And that's the part that leads me to think we're slipping into a dark.

You just said that.

And it kind of crystallized for me where yeah, I under.

I get.

We I get your point now.

Like it's not.

Technology.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter what we're achieving technologically.

Actually, it does matter because like it can be.

It depends how it's wielded and who it's wielded by.

1:17:57

So if you have a society that is rotting from within, if you have Caligula, for lack.

Of a given this technology.

Given this technology, like God knows what he's gonna do.

So it's almost like we need to force our own evolution now.

Like we need to like force, consciousness, evolution, because we're running around with these caveman brains with like, the weapons of gods.

1:18:17

Yeah, yeah, That's imagine giving a loaded gun to a three-year old.

But the gun is technology.

It's amazing.

Look what it can do.

All this stuff well, but yeah, look, look who's holding it right.

And I think, I think that's the wisdom part.

We have data, we have information.

But you know, so we know that the actual like data on things and what it is and what it's made from.

1:18:37

But do we have the wisdom to know how to wield it?

And do we even value that?

Do we even think of that word?

You know, I don't think it's part of our it's like because we can do it.

We should do it.

Kind of technocratic world that we've built.

You know, if there's an evil, that's an evil to me.

Yeah, I think parent universal evil.

1:18:54

People make sort of overtures about like, you know, with AI and with, you know, genetic modification and genetically modified foods.

There's always these overtures towards like, well, we're looking, we have an ethics department and this and that, and it's like, yeah, but like overall, I think you get down to people.

1:19:12

On an individual level, I guess we'll go that way.

1:19:35

And so another fact of dark ages, too.

You have people that have jobs and they want to do their job.

You know, you're in some ethicist that like, you know, Monsanto or whatever.

It's like, OK, you want to keep getting your paycheck.

It's like, you know what do I have to write rubber stamp, Like, yeah.

So it's like, I don't even think it's.

I'm sure there are ways that they have of putting things that they convince themselves that they're doing like no harm or whatever.

I don't think they're malicious.

It's just that that's how business works.

That's how corporations.

It's that's how universities work.

So.

You know, when you're getting higher these days at a university and you're going for your PhD or professorship, they'll ask you like, you know, what type of research do you wish to do at this university and how much funding do you think you can secure for us?

1:19:53

You know?

And if you don't have the right answers and a lot of funding, you're not going to get that job at the university.

So the only the questions that actually bring in the greatest amount of grants are the ones that are being researched.

Well, I also recently there is this.

I heard that there's that what what's happening is if you don't have a sufficiently adequate DI component to your grant applications, I prefer.

1:20:22

D i.e.

But sure, yeah.

So the yeah, what was it?

The Department of Energy in the States has their, they have like a National Science, they have a certain amount of money that they they grant to universities or what like researchers or whatever.

1:20:38

And they're actually, I think, one of the largest.

Language, to put it to companies that do the right numbers.

And that's right, yeah, they have, they do it.

You have to make sure that when you're applying now, they have a whole oversight committee to be like, well, make sure that you have enough diversity, enough inclusion and everything like that.

So offensive.

1:20:54

I find it's like mentally offensive.

Can you imagine now you have people to that have have some great discovery and they just need money to do it.

It's like, well, wait a minute, like how many people of color or do you have on your team or whatever the criteria is, like how much, what do you think about the economic situation?

Fine color.

So like it Now if you're in Africa and you're the minor, like you know what I mean?

1:21:11

Like like I hate to use the word but whiteness isn't the same all over the whole world.

You know it's you have this thing it's what it's I've heard it referred to it's like majority preference.

So in this, yes, in the in the unfortunately in North America the the predominant person is still white and I say that you know hand in my heart unfortunately but.

1:21:29

They there is certain like as tribal, like if you're in China and you're the outlier, you're part of the outside tribe, like there's a certain preference to your inner group.

It's just intergroup tribalism, you know, in Africa.

It's going to be the same thing.

So how is this even a global, diverse way of thinking when really you're just selecting based on the geographic location and who's the predominant race in that?

1:21:48

Area Yeah, like that's why I just in.

You're doing this, and you're impeding knowledge.

Right.

OK, Dark ages.

Well, what did you say?

Unfortunately, in North America, the.

Well, I just meant like I meant it like I really do believe in diversity, but but to this, it's just an unfortunate reality that the majority of people here are still of Caucasian background.

1:22:07

Well, why is that unfortunate?

It's only unfortunate to It's not unfortunate.

I just mean like it's a reality.

Bloody race traitor.

It's unfort.

It's it's unfortunate, but it's the reality is what I'm.

Trying to say, but what is unfortunate about it, I mean.

Because I because that's just the way the world works is unfortunate.

1:22:25

No, no.

But it's unfortunate for those who are the minority.

So imagine for instance you're an Asian or someone of who's non Caucasian background.

And you've been here and you've married your own type for 100 years, so you still are predominantly of the genetic background of the original ancestors.

That brought you here.

1:22:41

That must suck to a degree, because you look as let's say you look as Chinese as a person that came here six months ago, but you only know North American life.

You, you like.

I don't even know what China is.

I don't know.

I've never been there.

I don't speak it.

I don't eat it.

But it just so happened you married a Chinese person.

1:22:58

Your parents may have been both of Asian background.

So you're going to look like a visual minority, you know, even though you've been here your entire life and even like two or three generations.

That must, that must.

Create for those kinds of people a sense of non inclusion, which I that's why I say the word.

1:23:15

Unfortunately, I don't know.

But it's also reality.

I don't know how much.

We can blend.

You know we're.

Of Caucasian, a European background.

You can't really tell where either US is from and we have a diverse sort of a thing but for them, like if you are a Persian background or African background and you marry amongst.

1:23:32

That for a couple generations.

Even if you're here for 100 years.

You're still gonna feel like an outsider visually, and that's the part I say that's unfortunate.

I mean, yeah, maybe it's.

Their own choice, I get it.

But you don't want to have to.

Like I'm gonna have a mixed child so they blend in better.

That's an unfortunate thing to think of.

1:23:48

Yeah, you should be accepted from where you are, but the unfortunate.

Reality is, people won't accept you sometimes.

I don't know how much of that there is these days anymore.

Like I think that there is like I get that there is certainly.

1:24:03

Well, there is, if there is saying how many people on your front cover of your magazines of the 12 issues this month or of people of color, people are literally going through and counting skin color.

Yeah, exactly is.

That the most racist thing in the world, Yes.

Well, that's.

And that's the problem is like, you know, you had this, like trajectory that we had toward everybody being equal.

1:24:20

And I think we were, we were on that trajectory, right?

Like it wasn't perfect, but it was on that trajectory.

And now it's like, let's let's take everything back and start to reexam.

Color should be as interesting as hair color.

We don't sit there.

Well, how many redheads do you have on your team?

Why the hell doesn't matter.

You're human, right.

1:24:36

And so that's the that's the unfortunate part to me.

And that's a part that I think is completely fake.

And it's just it's literally weaponizing people's diversity for your own research grants.

You know, like it's so offensive.

You know, just simply say, you know do you have a good idea and.

1:24:54

And you've Yes, that's a great idea.

I don't care what shape, size, color you are.

It's the idea that's going to be funded and when we don't follow that, we're following the follow.

We're going on more faith rather than reason and that is a key indicator of slipping back into the dark ages.

Yeah.

1:25:10

Like I always think of it as especially these days and like I can only speak from these days cuz I I, you know in the past it's kind of like there was a lot of I think we've hit a general I I just don't think like if if I'm hiring people for the job and there's two different people they both speak English properly like that is a thing.

1:25:27

Like I you know if if somebody who is like I sure you know you have to speak the language you know what I mean that's how it's not OK to just what.

Is a Canadian accent these days.

But yeah, but that's the thing though.

Like I, As long as you can understand I can understand you and you can understand me and that we still still, you're still supposed to speak English, right.

1:25:44

Like that's English or French in Canada.

So, So yeah, the question, The thing is as long as like in terms of visual, like if you're you're talking about the person who's been here for 100 years or whatever, they're going to speak English fluently like if they're sentenced and everything.

So it's like they are very functional.

And I've had, you know, there's been people in my, you know, school or work or whatever that are like that and it's like, you know, whatever.

1:26:03

It's just like, so if you have like somebody like that or somebody of some other like a white person or something, and they both come in for a job interview, like you're going to go for the most qualified person.

You're not going to say like.

Hope so, No.

If that is, well, OK, like, not Speaking of everybody or whatever, but I think, I think the vast, vast majority of people these days simply want the best person for the job.

1:26:25

So like, whether it's man or woman and maybe there's some hidden biases in there and you're going to want some, you know, maybe somebody's going to prefer a man over a woman or maybe somebody, you know, you if you know, if you're Greek and I, if I was Greek and you came in and I'd be like, OK, well, he's sort of a countryman.

1:26:40

That stuff's always going to happen.

And and like, I'm not saying that there's not, that's all 100% perfect or whatever.

There's always going to be some problems.

But to go over and like start legislating and like like this focus on this is just making things 100 times worse and.

1:26:56

There's some communist country in the world I forget, maybe China, but I don't know because it's too much genius.

Where they actually legislate, like each district has to have a certain number of the residents must be that of the ethnic break breakup of the entire country.

So if you have 10% this type and 20% that type, each neighborhood must be represented by those, just as the populations are in the country.

1:27:17

So basically you're spread out exactly the same.

You can't have pockets like this section as these kinds of people and that section as those kinds of people, they literally legislate into it.

Have a certain race you can move into this area.

A certain race you cannot because there's too many of that kind of person there.

And they want that representation to be that which is The actual diversity of the entire country.

1:27:35

Is that real?

I have never heard.

Yeah I think it's such a nice ideological approach but it is so centralized and top heavy and non organic and I it's a very overused word.

I I just find it offensive and I've never.

Well, I'll tell you this, I've the most enlightened people I find are people who come from cultures who are truly victimized and they blow it off and like, yeah, whatever.

1:27:58

I went to school, I paid my dues and I'm amazing and you better hire me cuz I know what I'm talking about.

Not because of my skin color and I see all kind.

I have so many.

I'm sure you're 2 wonderful friends of diversity backgrounds like that and it's the most.

You just go to underground clubs and you thought you had a stereotype and you thought a certain type of person goes there and all of a sudden you saw someone who wasn't.

1:28:20

That kind of that must be one hell of an interesting person.

Cuz they're actually breaking a stereotype.

Yeah, you are the exceptional, You are the outlier.

And we're not encouraging that.

We're encouraging everybody to homogenize around the middle as opposed to embracing your differences and being like, you know what, though?

Those are just superficial.

1:28:35

Anyways, look what I can do.

Yeah.

As long as we don't do that, we're falling back into the dark ages.

Yeah.

And actually going back to Douglas Murray again, I, I, I, he, he referred to this, the this obsession of skin color and like, you know, sexual preference and everything as uninteresting.

1:28:53

And I think that's the best way you can describe it.

It's just not interesting.

It's like like we've we've as a society, like we've just moved past that.

So it's like, why are we now fetishizing it again?

And so yeah.

And just going back to like, you know, the technocratic side.

1:29:09

You know, like Zuckerberg dreams of us wearing glasses that'll allow us to attend Zoom meetings in, you know, virtual reality with an avatar that looks like you.

It feels like you.

And he talks about a bracelet that can send a text message with thoughts without actually moving your hand.

1:29:24

You know, So no one knows who you are actually texting, you know?

And he sees these things as positive contributions.

But to me it just sounds like hellscape.

You know, like.

What the hell are we building here?

That for me is dark ages.

You have technology but you're using it in completely the non human sort of way, yes.

1:29:44

But I can see the appeal of that kind of virtual reality where it's like, I think there's going to be some real bumps in the road, but then you're going to get this very immersive or it's like replicating reality.

But if it if we start spending 51% of your time in there, that is now the new reality and then maybe it is but like.

1:30:04

To me that's hellscape.

Well, it but it sounds like that now.

But if wouldn't be like we've had this conversation before.

We're like, you know, you could just maybe, maybe we're in right one right now.

Right nights, like, is this hell?

Like, you know what I mean?

Like if you can't tell the difference, then it doesn't really.

I don't think, yeah.

1:30:20

The the, the road to get there.

We we won't make it as a society because then we're basically becoming gods.

Something will happen before then we'll have overpopulated the earth.

I don't know living radical life extension of too many people on earth.

I don't know things things will collapse before that moment arrives because we lost the actual focus of what we need to do on a fundamentally, you know, everyday basis as humans.

1:30:42

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

At the end of the day we are humans and and and it's we sort of have to put that first like we have to remember that we are you know to some extent or however you want to say the children of God, right.

Like you can't be like I mean you can you know you certainly want to avail yourself of the technology that's available.

1:31:02

You just want to make sure you're doing it in the right direction.

I think that what you were the point you made earlier where it's like and I think that that's actually really the kernel of what should be almost a movement is having making sure that strong men are wielding the sword of technology and not this, you know, and the strong man.

1:31:21

Is me victim you know this is this reality is better than the real quote UN quote reality because the real reality is too hard to face.

So I'm going to shuffle myself off into the more curated reality for me, because I can actually go into the real world and force it to be the world I want it to be.

1:31:39

Well.

I see.

Which one is the strong person?

Which one's the weaker way?

Yeah, I think it's just important for people to make the sort of choice, you know, if you if you have the ability to sort of choose whether you want the I I see what you're saying like so the society seems to be kind of like sliding down where it's like it becomes easier and easier.

1:31:59

To I know you're going to say and if you created a video game and hard setting, it's still pretty arduous and therefore you feel like you have the actual growth curve.

Anyways, yeah, I can see that.

But you know, like if you're.

Building, let's say your little house and Prairie styles and you have to, you have to actually build your own house.

Well, what does that mean?

1:32:15

Well, you have to have a family.

You have to find someone to get married for.

They have to see you as a suitable partner.

Then you have to actually produce the kids, keep them alive, feed them, then actually find out the technology.

You know what I mean?

There's so much to go into that moment to build that house.

Yes, it's it's, it's time consuming, but you have to be a really strong person to get through all that.

1:32:33

Yeah, as opposed to just putting on a headset and going, voila, What do you do?

You know Ray Kurzweil?

Of course, yeah.

So I guess you're not a fan?

I need to look more into like nano bots into your.

Yeah, it's just, I mean, I agree with him on some things.

He's very much into vitamins and they're trying to keep himself alive in that sort of way.

1:32:52

And of course, supplementation in absence of robust food sources that you actually want to eat on a daily basis makes total sense.

But yeah, what was his points lately?

Well, he's the whole thing with his singularity.

We're already interfacing with these things, like that smartphone makes us infinitely smarter already, so why not just have more of that in our lives?

1:33:13

Yeah, like he thinks that I is.

By the end of the 2020 is that we will reach a point where we're starting to like the idea being that we cure diseases faster than like then we when we die.

So like you have like for example like nanobots inside of you that can detect cancer cells and ZAP them out and like report back to.

1:33:31

I think it's wishful thinking.

The companies are going to want to make money and it's not going to be cost effective or permanent.

It's going to be expensive and temporary.

I think it's wishful thinking that they're all of a sudden going to sit down and say they didn't let things like Iverm Mech didn't even be experimented with.

They're going to let something that cures cancer, like we got it and it's free.

1:33:49

Yeah.

You know what?

I No, no, no, they'll get some.

I mean, there'll be patents.

Look at the mRNA.

The thing for cancer, it'll be like Pfizer or, you know, one of these.

And I'll give you the weakest version with the longest duration in which you have to be.

You know, I don't want to use the word addicted, but, you know, tethered to in order to achieve such.

1:34:04

I just don't see the economics of the world allowing that to come out equally for the entire globe and for the benefits of health and nothing more.

Well, we were having a sort of an interesting conversation before this where you were saying that like, yeah, you'd have that sort of that cancer vaccine and they'll say like, well, like now we have something that can detect it beforehand.

1:34:29

So you're.

Yeah, go ahead.

Well, it's like when you know, like, I don't know when you.

Get mail something like from bank we see of turn 19.

Are you ready for your first visa card?

Things like that, right.

Like actually I'm pretty well, it's pre approved.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, they're gonna lower.

1:34:45

They're gonna obviously make some sort of a cancer detecting and I've read about something like this.

We can detect cancer in your blood years before it starts and they'll make that cheap and free.

So that's how you're gonna funnel all their clients into their system.

And then in order to keep your cancer levels you know mitigated over the duration of your lifetime, we have this thing that produces some sort of anti cancer antibody which wanes but you to get your shot every six months or daily drip God knows how they want to do it and you'll hold it at Bay and that is that really a better reality.

1:35:15

Well, I think that I think that's something like this this is a good.

I think that that doesn't sound like a better reality.

I do think though that if you have cancer and you're you want to get rid of the cancer, then that sounds like, I mean like I don't think I I think that's good.

Like, look, if you're going to die anyway, I'd rather, I'd rather get a treatment you know to.

1:35:35

I also just think before that day comes, the world's population is going to be substantially put down because I just don't see them wanting to people people to live that long at the population levels we have.

If if this Earth becomes very antihuman, if humans are the cause of all the, you know, carbon emissions, as we're talking about earlier on Earth, therefore then the humans are the are the enemy of.

1:35:56

The Earth.

And so therefore, if you go into the green cult, you're going to then want to say the less humans the better the Earth.

So why would they want to have radical life extension?

It's completely like the opposite idea, right?

You can do like, I don't have any children, right?

1:36:12

So let's say someone is hyper green and they have three kids.

It doesn't matter how green they are in their lifetime as a family of five.

They will never be as green as my wife and I, even if we do nothing green cuz we're two people.

It's simply the elimination of the population has the greatest effect on that, right?

1:36:30

So I just don't believe it.

I don't think.

That allows 1 billion people on Earth surviving for that long.

If they're also simultaneously all about the green world, one of the two has to buckle.

But I think the thing that's buckling is the overpopulation Because like we're we'll be underpopulated.

1:36:48

So what point 8,000,008, so we go to 10 in 20-30 years we drift back to 876.

I'm sure these I'm not sure, I shouldn't say it's well beyond my pay grade, but they're probably, there's probably some numbers like the Earth's optimum number of people is like 1 billion people globally.

So we're still talking like a one in 10 survival rate maybe, but I can see, I can see once you get like India and Bangladesh and all these countries to like stop having so many kids which they will like.

1:37:13

And then they have the China's up to like a three, three child policy now and the rates are still going down, still going down.

So it's like so the trajectory is down like for whatever reason like whether it's people are just making those choices or whatever like unless something comes along and says no you've got to have more kids, you can see the trajectory going down.

1:37:30

It might actually be like what's the word like?

Precipitous, precipitously, No.

Just kind of like kind of glide nicely into this whole like, well, you know.

What's that?

What's the time frame on that?

I think 50 years or something.

1:37:45

So, you know, maybe the technology and that will converge at the right moment.

And that's your singularity moment.

Yeah.

But where I disagree with him.

And what was his last name?

Kurz.

Well, Kurz, Well, yeah, he's like, you know, the, the cell phone has made us, you know, so much smarter.

And if we're already interfacing it because we're looking at all time, what's the difference if we put a chip in her head?

1:38:02

Because you're just interfacing with the knowledge more often, like.

The problem is, I goes back to my thing about words and thoughts.

I I disagree.

I don't think the cell phone is making us smarter.

I think it gives U.S. data and information, but it's not giving us wisdom.

And inevitably what's going to save the planet is more wisdom.

1:38:18

We have enough.

Even at this moment, I think knowledge and data and information, it's the how to wield it properly.

There's more than enough space for everyone on Earth, there's more than enough food for everybody on Earth, and we can't fix these two problems.

More data and more knowledge isn't going to fix that.

It's wisdom.

1:38:35

Yeah, that's a good point.

You know so so I just I think we've already we've done well enough at this point.

I still want to do better.

I'm not like an anti technology guy.

I'm saying just to say that like this thing is so good and altruistic we just need more of it.

Infinitely is not going to actually bring us to the right conclusions.

1:38:51

You know another thing too, I don't just bringing it back to what happened here in dark ages.

Did you know that it actually came out about a month ago.

I really chatted much.

With anybody about this since then that this is back to local knowledge and COVID.

1:39:08

But following following an auditor general's report, they found that in Ontario, the pandemic response a response of our governments, the centralization of information data technology, what was being driven by political staff atop a command structure developed by the US Consulting Agency.

1:39:27

And the premier, Doug Ford, is assisting that medical experts and Ontario top doctors were calling the shots.

Meaning our doctors are follow the science.

As they were telling us, technology was actually not coming from medical science but coming from US consulting firms.

1:39:44

So they were telling sort of the doctors what to.

I don't know if they were going through the doctors or straight to the politicians, cuz it's the politicians that would be paying the US consulting firms and they.

Were deferring Well, we're trusting the science slogans once again, right?

Like death by slogans, I swear to God.

1:40:00

Right.

1:40:12

But then they the why do we have these people that they bring on TV doctors every single day like, well, we have to do this and we have nothing.

Well, but you can see that because it's also like that's sort of how every government was behaving.

They're all sort of taking their cue from like the The Who and CDC.

You and I are sitting home.

Well, I got 10 different research papers in front of me and they kind of indicate the opposite direction is the right way to go.

Why is this doctor telling me this?

Because you're getting it from some us and so.

And what are the motives behind?

1:40:27

Is it simply altruistic for better health, or is this another way?

Is this just been weaponized in a level that we don't understand?

That we understand bombs, we understand explosions, we understand airplanes and all that sort of stuff, But the weapons come in all shapes and sizes.

Economic weapons, viral weapons, biological weapons, social weapons, religious weapons, you all these things can be weaponized.

1:40:46

And I fear this is another diminishing of the strength of the individual and offloading that responsibility to mechanisms that aren't even part of your nation state.

Yeah, You know, and that is a step backwards.

Well, the whole idea of government is that you have somebody you know there, There needs to be a level of transparency and they're supposed to be representing the people.

1:41:13

Who gets to question them?

And we didn't elect, you know, a consulting service from the United States to to make our.

Yeah, exactly.

I open my mouth and I'm like, you know, I'm banned from Facebook, let's say, even though I'm quoting, you know, data from Israel, right?

Like what?

Sorry.

Quick It's so diminishing to the individual's intellect.

What do you think of like, I don't know, so I'm in this Discord group and this one guy I know, like posts a lot of stuff about, you know, all these recent reports of what is it mitocharditis and stuff like that.

1:41:45

You know, what is the story with that?

There's more than they expected.

I mean, I can't even keep up with the numbers anymore, you know?

There's a lot I know.

1:42:09

Right.

I believe it's Denmark has stopped all boosters under the age of 50.

Unless you talk personally to your doctor and they say yes, you are a person that requires this, which is amazing.

I think that's the way it should be.

It's individual, personalized health and what are we talking about?

Like this is back to the individual.

Instead of like to see a sort of, like I said, top down universal structure, I believe the UK has stopped it underneath the ages of 12 or 18.

Sweden is somewhere in the middle of those two things, so Denmark was 50. 50 and younger, 15.

1:42:25

Or 50 50 Wow.

Yeah, OK.

And if which if you look at the death counts, I've been saying this for a year and a half like it really under 50, it's your choice man or 50.

I recommend vaccination.

Still I think there's at least in the short term to buffer the main part of the pandemic.

Yeah, no problem.

And also the the side effects that we are seeing are happening in the lower age groups, which are the age groups that are at least at risk.

1:42:47

So why would you then throw that risk onto them with the the cost benefit analysis doesn't work anymore especially in light of Omicron, right, Which I mean I could you could argue even in Delta you didn't or even the original strain you wouldn't have to do this.

And I believe Florida came out with data as well although some people are not liking the way the data was presented and what not.

1:43:05

But nevertheless, maybe, I don't know, maybe that's just the politics of presenting data these days.

Because their conclusions were pretty much in line of what, Northern?

Europe was saying.

So yeah, there's there's issues.

This is a novel technology, you know, proceed with caution, right.

1:43:21

I don't know why on earth they would just like let's let's give it to all our military.

Start with half right.

Let's see what happens over a five year period.

Yeah.

Because again this, if this was to have a negative effect, things can be weaponized, you know?

Yeah.

So why?

Do you have something more to say about that?

1:43:38

Or no, I just don't know enough about it.

Like, I I don't just like there's only so many hours in the day, right?

This isn't like I kind of get the gist of it.

This is another issue I think too, that where we're going into dark ages, like death by specialization.

If we can't turn on the news and feel like we trust what we're being told, then if I wanted to research vaccines or climate change or whatever the topic of the day is, I literally have to set aside 6 to 9 months and do it myself.

1:44:01

Yeah, and it's gonna, I'm gonna make mistakes.

It's gonna be time consuming.

Your personal life and your relationships will take a hit cuz you can't put as much time into it.

But it's like for me it's like unfortunately the only way to really move quickly or not move quickly, move towards the right answer.

I can't turn on the news and unless you just want to know most superficial you're not gonna get anything knowledge based out of that.

1:44:25

Yeah, exactly.

Knowledge based, you're right.

That's it's sort of the big tragedy of our times I got.

I don't know, it might have even been like that before and we just didn't know about it, but now at least we know about it.

And yeah, you have those options, but you really have to dedicate the time if you want to know that sort of truth.

1:44:41

Good people cannot make good decisions with bad information.

And I bump into good people making bad decisions with bad information every single day.

Yeah, and I I don't really bite my tongue.

I'm just trying to be very polite and loving about it and I can see it in their eyes now as we're emerging slowly from the pandemic.

1:45:00

Some clients, I can almost feel like they just want to like, give me a bigger hug than ever because they feel bad for sort of being wrong about a great many things.

Interesting.

So let's talk a little bit about how something like cancel culture plays into this idea of sort of reliving a more, let's say, a less civilized part in the past.

1:45:30

Like I'm thinking about, you know, Salem witch trials are really actually don't have to go back that far to get into the 50s.

McCarthyism, this whole idea that if you do acts, you are no longer part of this community.

1:45:48

And people defining what the community is, the, the, the scope of that is getting more and more tight and more, you know, the whole thing, The whole idea of like a president or a Prime Minister or like, you know, like a state in general is to include everybody in some capacity.

1:46:09

And like, you know, you have your outliers who are like maybe criminals or something where it's like, OK, they maybe get a little, they're incarcerated.

There's a little lesser status sort of relegated to them that you can't vote or something like that, but you know, for the most part, like you're a Roman citizen kind of thing, right?

1:46:24

Like whereas now there's this sociological kind of ostracization that happens where you get somebody who says the wrong thing or.

Well, it's almost like just thinking as you say that, like that centralization is an enemy of diversity and as the world becomes more centralized, it's like pseudo diversity, like the most superficial forms.

1:46:48

Right.

It's like.

We look so diverse, but do we actually think diverse and is that embraced right and and democracy and freedom and Magna Carta and whatever else you want to call it, like just allowed for the the chaos of the individual And it's through democracy.

1:47:05

As long as we had a majority you moved forward, right?

You know, I I find these values are being diminished a lot for the greater good as people put it these days.

Put that above to like how do you get to the greater good.

Yeah.

Like I I, you know I kind of want to be delicate in saying this but there's a there's something to the idea that you have this idea of having diversity.

1:47:28

And I I know it's a lot of people sort of say like diversity of thought or whatever.

But I I think that it is the idea behind being diverse and having, you know DEI gender, the sorry the the diversity, inclusion, equity stuff.

1:47:45

The whole idea of it is that we're going to get people from different backgrounds that are going to have different perspectives and different experiences.

And some people aren't being represented in the general conversation and we want to kind of make those voices, allow those voices to be heard a little more so.

1:48:02

But you when you start looking at it and you start analyzing who it is that is, I mean, you know, you could think of it just in terms of, you know, my experiences anyway, we might have, you know, 100 people in my company, for example, and we'll have, you know, certain people because of their skin color only, you know, born in Canada, born in, you know, but they happen to be Asian or they happen to be.

1:48:31

Black I understand it from a simple point of view.

That can be a starting point, an indicator that hey, you know, this might be somebody who.

You know things, yeah, from a starting.

Point a starting point but and and you know I love diversity you know at the what's the opposite just like some homogeneous like stagnant BLOB of like non fresh ideas like no it's that's we're not meant to be like that it's just a non healthy way even from a genealogical point of view you know like diversity is is our strength true.

1:49:03

But diversity, I feel in your sense as you're putting it now.

Just corporations are happy to end it there.

As long as they look diverse.

It doesn't really matter if they're actually thinking diverse.

Well, yeah, I I think the the point though is sort of that there's more like these people who they're being sort of singled out for their, you know, diverse skin color or whatever you want to call it, which in a city like Toronto is not really that different, You know what I mean?

1:49:31

Like.

I called the most multicultural city on Earth and I was very happy to live here because of that.

I think that the there's there's more commonalities that these people have because they're Canadian or they're born in Canada, they're raised in the same schools, you know, like so then then then there's differences.

1:49:47

So to kind of go out of the way, out of the way to say that these people aren't being represented and you know, not speaking for everybody or whatever, I think there's I I think it should almost be more, I mean if you want to kind of go that route then kind of gear it toward maybe socioeconomic status or something like that, I would still argue against.

1:50:04

So many attributes.

I mean, if you take this again just in an absurdity, but if you take it to its nth degree, at some point they'd like, Oh my God, like, look, you have too many Canadians on your Canadian team.

If it's truly diverse on a global company, you should have representation of the entire globe on your team.

1:50:20

It's one thing to look Mediterranean and be born and raised for three generations in Canada, but have you have a first generation or a you know where where you know, like I start?

Building post nation state stuff, right?

Yeah.

Like what does it end?

1:50:35

Let's get to Mars, you know what I mean?

Let's, let's start worrying about like the asteroid that's inevitably going to hit us.

Why are we going down this?

I mean the the there's such like diminishing returns with this that you you keep going down these rabbit holes to appease more and more of a minority of people.

1:50:57

And to be perfectly honest, like I, I know a lot of the a lot of people that these programs would sort of purport to assist are not there's no, there's no real assistance that's being done.

Like they they they sort of already assimilated into, you know, like you know to be honest it's just crazy to even talk about it like it is it feels like kind of a nonissue.

1:51:16

Like it's like well, maybe it's because we're in Toronto or whatever.

Like like I just there's like I never there is not some.

Some like you have sort of wealthier people and poorer people but there's not this like stratification among racial lines.

1:51:34

Like, there just isn't like or is.

At least it's not pronounced.

Again, it goes a little bit back to Yaomi Park.

1:51:51

You know, yeah, I think in the United States that I think the racial and socioeconomic class is is more, there's more of a link there.

The issue isn't so much whether someone gets ahead or not in life inequality.

It's where the bottom line of poverty is.

And in Canada, the bottom line that it's a much more smooth out curve than other countries on Earth.

1:52:02

You know I to what extent I I feel like it's probably still being amplified to larger degree.

But, and I know, I know, of course it's so multicultural.

But Toronto is America, to your point, United States.

But Toronto truly is one of the most multicultural places to walk around.

1:52:18

And that in a sense, I think almost helps eliminate racism because everybody's from somewhere else.

You know, as in the States, you kind of have these two or three major different subgroups.

And you?

It's easier to delineate.

Which group do you belong to as opposed to like, Jesus.

There's 1000 different groups now.

1:52:35

CELA V We're all Canadian, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do.

I do think there's like it It really comes down to a point of just being Canadian.

Because The thing is is like a lot of these people that are from Toronto that just maybe have a different skin color aren't necessarily from somewhere else, right?

1:52:54

Like they're maybe their grandparents or whatever.

So it's like there's still we're still we're already already speaking the same language there's there's a little differences right.

Like I mean I mean I had a friend when I was young and he was Chinese but he well he's Chinese Canadian like in his is his parents were Chinese Canadian and his grandparents I think came from China but he was there was no different I mean they lived near us they lived like there was no difference in how I mean now how he experienced the world.

1:53:23

I mean, if I were to talk to him, now, I've spoken.

Of and so would his chineseness be.

In your sense adding a layer of diversity to your team that you didn't have?

Well, not him.

Superficially, yes.

Yeah.

I mean, you could.

If your goal is to just have people that look a little bit different than sure.

1:53:40

But if your goal is to just, I mean, he was just like.

Real differences, man.

Like, I love the differences I get in there, get messy.

I agree with the concept.

I just hate the the prancing around and posturing around the cloud.

Diverse we are.

Yeah, right.

What benefit is it to the average?

Minority group.

1:53:58

If you take said minority group, who is the vice president and make them president, that person was always already doing really well in life.

Like that person was, you know, getting a home run.

It's the bottom end that bothers me.

Like, we need to help the most.

Yeah, right.

So promoting people that are already at the top FL echelons of their careers because of their race isn't going to help poor little kid at the bottom of the pyramid.

1:54:20

Right.

So, like, I think that's where I think we need to put our focus on.

Yeah, like just more meat and potatoes and like, really.

You know, like no lip service.

But you know, this goes back to our point of maybe dark ages.

Everybody's so looking, wanting just to look like they're doing the right thing as opposed to actually doing the right thing.

1:54:36

Yeah.

So getting back to this this cancel culture business, I I think that the, I agree with what you're saying that there's a real, like you have.

It's it's almost like we now have this public life so we didn't used to have that.

1:54:54

We're all sort of responsible for maintaining so that we can't have what you're saying sometimes that you will post things on.

Various various mediums.

And you know, you don't necessarily get the responses, you know the number of likes, the number of retweets or whatever, but then you'll get people privately messaging you saying like, Oh yeah, I, you know, I agree.

1:55:13

And everything like that where it's this, it's kind of like a people, people are just overly protective and rightfully so of their their public life because it's going to affect their private life and we didn't used to have that problem.

1:55:30

So then you have whole conversations being guided by that kind of fear.

And so things just kind of go one way where it's like eventually everybody just wants to be shown, you know, because, you know, think of 1984 again.

Like everybody just wants to be shown.

1:55:46

They're going to be shouting at the TV that with the voice, like in the in their two-minute hate thing at where they're going to be grabbing the pitchforks and like screaming down the street even though they don't necessarily believe it.

Or, you know, maybe the next generation will intrinsically kind of believe the things that they're shouting about.

1:56:02

But we happen to still be in a generation where people are privately messaging me and like, I don't actually believe it, but I'm willing to, you know, I don't want to look bad, basically.

It's again, it's like some some homogenization.

It's like personal curbside appeal, right.

You know, like how does the house look?

1:56:17

Does it look good?

PCA?

Yeah.

There, there you go.

The new term PCA.

Yeah.

And it's just it's what is behind that wall.

What's the real diversity of thought?

You know, like it's not just, it's not diverse, Jason.

I just don't see it as being truly diverse when people are afraid to speak out and actually.

1:56:35

Learn.

I don't know.

Have we lost the art of just conversation and being able to argue the point and not the person?

I think we assume now because they take a certain point of view, the person is bad, right?

Like we're more in that phase now than I've ever seen in my lifetime, for sure.

1:56:51

And that for sure is dark ages.

Yeah.

You're a Protestant.

I don't care how what you do in life.

You're, you know, you're a cat.

Oh my God.

It doesn't matter what you're you know, you're a German.

And you know, like you just assume you're part of the Nazis.

You know, like, why Like and we're just doing this tribal blank judgment calls.

1:57:09

Yeah, it's a really rich topic because there's a lot of variables, I think to go into it like you have, I think shorter attention span almost like less time.

Speed of life.

Yeah.

They're just, yeah, speed of like there's so much happening and there's so much.

1:57:25

If you're not kind of keeping up with all your all this, like all the various things that you have access to now, like your Instagram or your like.

If you don't, if you're not on top of all that, then you're you're sort of falling behind.

But you also want to be like where is the room for like listening to, you know, a three hour debate about something or like really taking the time to research a topic so you know what you're talking about.

1:57:49

It's just very superficial in the way.

Judgment calls, yeah, that's why this probably works.

The DEI stuff, because it's like they're they're targeting something that is relatively superficial, where it's like you're targeting people's skin color, you're targeting people's like sexual orientation, where it's like the deeper, the deeper differences are not touched upon and the more important differences aren't touched upon.

1:58:16

I just.

Had a thought.

I think we're being reprogrammed through convenience to expect.

Through convenience.

One of the most things people want from convenience?

Speed, right?

So Amazon?

Next day delivery.

Same day delivery.

1:58:31

How about voting?

Like before, the polls have closed.

Through electronic voting, we've determined who is the winner, right?

Like, you know, and it sounds great, like, oh, I don't know who runs the country before I go to sleep tonight.

We don't have to count all those paper ballots.

But cumulatively over a period of time, what happens, I think to our minds is that we just expect everything to be decided.

1:58:52

Really quickly and if there's any room for nuance, we'll just going to have to blow past that because we just addicted to speed or yeah or they assumed that any kind of discussion that would have happened around something that is important that might be you know like they're there are people are equating the same level of investment in like a story about you know the latest Kanye quote or whatever as it would be whether vaccines are safe or not at the.

1:59:23

Same time they're putting into both, right?

Right.

So it's like.

And that's a short period of time in both.

Yeah.

Yeah, so, so, so they are, they're assuming that that calculation has already been done.

You know, the people who make the decisions have already decided that these vaccines are, you know, necessary.

1:59:41

They're they should be mandatory.

They there should be all these restrictions.

They're assuming that, well, the people who like that, that whatever algorithm determines that has already determined that, and like the subconscious who.

Are you to talk against the Yeah, right, very.

Star Trek though.

Kirk was like arguing with the computer one time.

1:59:57

A supercomputer.

Like, how can you beat a supercomputer, mind, you know?

And people just sort of like, submitted to that.

Technology knows more.

Right, right.

It does not bring us back to dark ages like what happened to the beauty of the individual to stand up and use the.

2:00:13

It's 2530 years of investment as a society.

We've put into them through education to come up with something fresh, you know, and we do that over 30 million people in Canada, right.

And then you get at that truly diverse, you know, well trained and diverse response as opposed to a centralized trustee experts, This is your papal institute and you know screwed if you're Galileo.

2:00:37

The world is whatever the Pope says, You know, like it's it's a it's very strange.

It's an amazing mechanism.

For solidifying power around a narrow point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like what we have the greatest invention I think that that mankind has made is a scientific method, if you want to call it an invention, I guess.

2:00:58

But it's this idea that you can question things and the the you have a theory, you make sure it's retestable and it can be repeated again and again that like the result is the same.

2:01:14

Valid, reliable.

Yeah.

And you have people peer testing and everything like that.

And then then you can attack those truths because we've determined them to be true.

That's how you should do it.

Now I understand the argument like you don't want everybody who was like, like, well I have three brothers and they all got, they all like had some sort of hemorrhage because of the vaccine.

2:01:33

I mean that actually would be a little like three really.

That's something with your DNA, but the like there, there needs to be, I understand not wanting to have everybody at the table, but you really had, you know, we're just using the vaccines as an example.

2:01:50

But it's like you you have the, you had a lot of like people who who had the credentials to be speaking about this, who went, did the schooling, who are making points that were, you know, maybe you can argue the points if you want to get on a panel and argue the points, but you never saw that.

You never saw that like the.

Average citizen did not see any doctors in Canada that are considered mainstream have a.

2:02:10

Even 10 minute nuance conversation on any regular news channel and you can't tell me that some doctors didn't sit there and look at the information and go well that's that's an interesting I think that study is undermanned or I don't like the way this was done or let's have a conversation about think where's none of that so then we're just expected to just well I guess the doctors there seems to be unanimous consensus around this you know Yeah and it's like who.

2:02:32

Are you as a as a layman to tell the mechanisms that check all this?

If when, even those who work within such mechanisms are not speaking up, and again I could even see that.

Cardinals are not talking against the Pope, right?

Meanwhile, though, you know stuff's going down.

Right, right, right.

2:02:49

Because there's not a, there's not a culture that, again, I'll go back to like the whole the Catholic Church, that probably wasn't a culture of open discussion built into the mechanism, right?

And if there was, because these are free individuals, but they weren't able to speak out, So have we now built that same sort of structure into our government?

2:03:07

Into corporate, into science itself, where those who are embedded in it can't really speak out for fear.

Yeah, yeah, I think.

How is that not dark gauges?

Like for me?

For me, what is the opposite of dark gauges?

For me, the opposite is, I don't know, a symbolic You're standing on the top of a mountain and you have the light and you're solo and you see something cuz you're on a different vantage point and from what you have traversed to get up that mountain and the point from which you see it.

2:03:33

It says, my God, I have found a certain truth.

I don't know if it's all the truths, but I have found a certain truth.

Do you wish to talk about it and share as opposed to everybody standing around the bottom of the mountain and looking up and having a designated person tell them this is the light?

Yeah, you can go up the mountain yourself.

2:03:49

Well, I think of the opposite of Dark Ages as like Newton, almost like Isaac Newton or that kind of thing, where it's like, you know what he had?

He had a theory, tested his theory.

He made it available so everybody could see how he arrived at his conclusions.

People would test it and they'd be like, wow, this works.

2:04:06

Like this gravity thing seems real, like he's predicted all this stuff.

Isn't it amazing what we can do as humans?

And at least up to now, Yeah, yeah, that.

His science progresses, sure.

Yeah, exactly like so.

And you know, that works for like 99% of the stuff.

And then you came quantum mechanics later on.

But it's like, but you it doesn't negate the work that he did and it doesn't make it untrue.

2:04:24

And that's that's how you build something, you know, And this idea of, you know, if Newton presented everything and you just had people saying like, like, like, no, that's not the how, that's not how it is.

It doesn't matter.

Like don't even look at what he's doing.

Like that's.

The opposite, OK.

2:04:41

And not even questioning it any further.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Through a proper scientific discourse, right?

You know, Then you just it just becomes like revelation.

As opposed to actually science, like the vaccines felt like revelation.

We have, we have got the revelation.

You do not need to look any further, right?

2:04:57

You know, again, going back to how we started this particular episode, it was the same thing when Christianity took over.

You didn't need the works of Aristotle, Plato and Socrates and you know previous scholars cuz we have revelation right?

It really shuts down thinking, questioning, inquiry, wonder, curiosity.

2:05:17

Yeah, and it's an.

Interesting mechanism cuz it's just like the mask can be symbolic or in other cultures other parts of types of clothing can be symbolically used to take the human and diminish their individuality.

I feel like that can also happen when you have like things that come from these power structures that come down like revelation as opposed to scientific discoveries that are meant to be cross referenced.

2:05:43

Yeah, yeah, the mask is almost analogous to like a muzzle or something, you know?

And I I If there's one thing I got dead wrong in COVID, it was unmasking.

And I had this in my mind when I see people wearing it for.

I was Supermasker in the beginning.

Right, right.

Telling people I interact with were worth like really like you got to put that on and and once the science changed and I saw that said mask was having no efficacy the fact that the power structures were still advocating for it like something is up right again.

2:06:14

Just coming back to this episode, Dark Ages.

Why are you telling me something that's not scientifically true, that I need to keep doing it?

Yeah, for the greater good.

Yeah, it it bothers me too that you can't seem to get through to these people like or or or.

Or or or just throw me, throw me, throw me something back that is intellectually interesting.

2:06:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's all I'm asking for, you know, Make me pause and wonder.

I have changed my opinion so much in the last 2-3 years and all these sorts of things and I it's mostly because of just research and bumping into other like minded individuals around the net, but not often enough in regular life.

2:06:55

It shows you how rare it is because basically you have to use a mechanism like the Internet to tap all six, 7 billion people on Earth to find the 1000 that are kind of moving in your direction.

Yeah.

It's strange in this day and age when you can go on the Internet and you're looking for a certain topic and you're finding very few people.

2:07:14

Like, you know, it's a very, there's sort of a paucity of information that's out there about it.

And you're like, oh, I've discovered it's almost like you're discovering new land or something, because everything seems to be a.

Little Christopher Columbus, Like, like, yeah, yeah, there is, there is land.

It's that you're not going to fall off the Flat Earth, Right.

2:07:31

Right.

And who was saying there was a Flat Earth?

The powers are be.

And just like my metaphor, going to the top of the mountain, Christopher had to take his boat and just jet out on his own.

So what do you do then Like like we're just sort of like describing the problem and I mean to I think to us the problem and I think to people listening to this, the problem is very obvious and it's it's like how do you how do you how do you approach it And let me give you I have two examples here.

2:07:58

And is it's just random examples like I just had something happen a few days ago where this is just so out of the blue this example.

So I was making a right turn somewhere.

Somebody was crossing the street.

She was walking across the street.

She had the right of way to walk to walk across the street.

2:08:14

Two cars made the right turn right in front of her where she had to stop.

They both went and then I went and I kind of stopped before, you know, so she could cross.

And she wearing a mask, by the way, outside she was apoplectic and started, stared at me and was kind of raising her arms and gesticulating.

2:08:34

And I was like, you moron, like you're mad at those two people.

I stopped, you know, like, like, can't you direct your rage, like.

And and it really kind of crystallized for me.

I I thought, like this is kind of the state of the world today.

Somebody's so angry that they can't even see.

2:08:50

Well, they're so angry.

And they're so just like, muddled in their head that they don't understand that I'm not the target of their anger.

And so I was watching something online the other day.

I forget who it was.

I want to say it was like, I I don't know if it was her, but it sounded like Heather, Heather, hey, hey, hey.

2:09:10

Giving us giving kind of a speech or at a symposium or something.

And this is just something on on Twitter a few days ago where she was defining like basically saying things like, you know, men and women have some differences.

The different, you know, the, the bone structure is different and just kind of all these anatomical things which are different.

2:09:30

And you had people at the AT symposium like, yes, walking out, storming out, knocking over the sound.

Credible but isn't that isn't that like you just feel like shaking them and being like like what is your like How can you say that that's not true like well, I.

2:09:46

Know to me that that's.

How I can tell how the enemy is going to think in this case?

Because they're going to say well.

You know, we call that bone structure a male or female, but that person whose bones they are didn't see it as a male or female.

Therefore who are we to tell them what they are like in this sense it is just decomposition of reality, right?

2:10:05

And that's what you're going to get back into.

Like how is that not when the oppressive nature of the church took over?

Like the the, the, you know, the pre enlightenment and the the classical age.

Like you literally had works of art.

Like, yeah, you know, we're not going to and which were scientific breakthroughs of a sort, you know, Yeah, we're not going to do that anymore.

2:10:24

We're just going to go in with our own ideology and reality be damned.

And that's when you put ideology.

Before reality, yeah.

Yes, you're right.

You can look at the bone structure of a man or woman from 2000 years ago, like skeletons of 2000 years ago, and determine if they were, you know, XX or XY.

2:10:43

Overwhelmingly, there may be a subfraction of a subfraction of a subfraction that, oh, this person was a hermaphrodite or something, but it's a very rare occurrence, right?

But then they take that small rare occurrence and extrapolate it and say, well, therefore we can't say for sure if this was a man or for sure was a woman.

2:10:59

Yeah.

Biologically, never mind how they perceive themselves, you know, Right.

So I agree with you it's a it's it's not it's it's this whole post modernism thing.

You know.

Yeah it's a it's a shame.

You know you really want to move past this as a society.

2:11:18

You know you wonder is this the thing we're going to get tripped up by Like it's very well, like perversion of reality.

Like have we gone so far down the rabbit hole that we're is 2 and two five now like it's.

Just many do, or math is racist.

Is this where all societies fall apart like we are at the peak in so many ways?

2:11:38

Technological breakthroughs?

Amazing science.

You can video chat around the world, but are those breakthroughs always linked to these sorts of discussions?

And inevitably it's these types of discussions where it actually despite whether it's the Egyptians, the Romans, the Sumerians, they have all these great breakthroughs, but society itself tears.

2:12:03

The society tears itself apart because we can't determine if a man is a man and a woman is a woman anymore.

Yeah.

Like it's like it almost goes hand in hand.

Like technological progress goes hand in hand of societal progress.

To the point that when you push the side of progress is such an extreme it tears apart society and you lose it all.

2:12:22

Yeah, and you start from scratch again.

Yeah, it's like a built in flaw in the system, yeah.

Or or maybe it's a feature.

Maybe we're not meant to go further you.

Know and it throws us back into a loop.

Right.

Really, I think.

I really think there must be something to it, because this just makes no logical sense that we can have.

2:12:40

The powers of gods, almost.

And then not knowing how to determine a man from a woman.

It's it's it's it's almost like a cosmic joke.

I can just see some, you know, the Titans up there, like on Olympus just being look at these idiots.

But it's like, you know, they have it all at their fingertips and yet this is the thing that's just like our kryptonite is like the most basic thing.

2:12:59

It's like that's.

It makes sense to a degree, that we fall for this because.

Part of society getting better.

As we start taking care, we become more aware, we become more woke, we become more aware of the problems in everyday life and those who are like, wow, the basic needs of society have been met, but we have.

2:13:18

And then you turn your attention to those who were ignoring to a degree whether it would be trans, gay rights.

Rightly so.

But then that becomes such a focus.

Right, Cuz you're starting to hunt for the little problems, the little statistically in your society, right?

That that becomes such a focus that you actually end up.

2:13:36

Your actual society begins to crumble because you've lost.

You've put more focus on the small pieces and lost focus on the big pieces.

Yeah.

Or you could even say that the focus needs to be at broad first principles where you know, for example, like making sure everybody has equal rights like you get into you can get into nuanced discussions on, you know gay marriage and what not.

2:13:58

I, you know, obviously I have an opinion about that.

I I, but I don't.

It's kind of like there are still people that don't, you know, that don't think that gay people should be married because of their religion or whatever.

So like it's, I can understand at least there's a perspective there, though I may not agree with it.

2:14:15

However, at least that's getting to a point where you're identifying you're still on some general same framework like like the basic framework is still there.

It's like, OK, you have to agree that people have the right to you know do certain things all these battles that were fought like last century.

2:14:32

But then it's like now we're getting into it's not even necessarily about broad principles.

It's just it's just like about this magnification on certain people and like this spotlight that's going around our Searchlight that's going around trying to find any little right and you're in equity that can be redressed like and then it's just like.

2:14:54

Because we have the ability, we have this new ability to be able to search for such problems and try to rightly correct them.

But that then diverts our attention and the Barbarians mass of the gate sort of thing, right?

And that goes hand in hand of technological advancement because it's just advancement across the board.

2:15:10

Yeah.

So that you get to that saying that I couldn't understand as a child, like all society sort of decay from within.

Yeah, like how why don't let this sort of thing happen to you.

But you can't help it cuz it's actually out of this weird sense of goodness.

You're trying to help the downtrodden, but you can lose focus in your your.

2:15:28

It's kind of like when Bret Weinstein would say it's like literary, false, metaphorically true.

So did you ever hear that I ever talk about with you here, the story about?

I'll do it very shortly.

There was a tribe, they were searching for something, and I believe Latin America and the tribe believed that they had this religious belief that if we plant all our seeds on the full moon, that's what the God told us, that when we go to actually pick the seeds, whenever the next cycle is, we'll get the best bounty, the best reaping of our whatever food we were trying to, you know, grow.

2:16:03

And like, obviously this can't be true.

This is just some sort of like a, you know, mythological, religious, superstitious way of being.

And some people went and researched it and said, well, wait a SEC, let's try this.

So they did, you know, a couple different groups.

One group, we planted all our seeds for the entire year, just like the religion said, when the moon it was full.

2:16:24

And then the other group said no, we'll we'll do them sporadically over a period of time and then we'll look, you know, we'll harvest them when it's time.

And believe it or not, they got more food quantifiably when they did it the religious way.

Yeah, you're like, okay, wait a SEC, Well, this can't be religion, So it's literally false, but metaphorically true.

2:16:42

What they found out was that when you plant all the seeds at one time and they all become ripe at one time.

The amount of bugs that are available to eat, your harvest can't simply devour all the food you have there, right?

So you end up with more.

But if you do, it staggered where you thought, well, we'll do a little bit this day or that day.

2:16:59

The bugs do have time and you come out with less food, right?

So my point to this is that there are certain things we have done over the period of time which may have society wise, like I said, ignored some of these downtrodden.

But, and it didn't make sense because they certainly need to be helped and I'm certainly advocating for them to be helped.

2:17:19

But the focus the the there was a certain way of doing things that allowed the aggregate of society to move forward in a more unified form.

Right.

Right.

And now we're now we're stopping on wait a SEC well that doesn't make no sense.

2:17:34

Let's try to do it all staggered and help each individual piece.

But as you get to the the end society as a metaphor, you're not actually not.

You're not actually not harvesting as much out of your society as you were prior, right?

Even though it makes no logical sense, yeah, I think we've we've stumbled into some sort of realm.

2:17:53

Now with that.

We're out of goodness.

Like just again.

Planting the seed sporadically makes like more sense and helping the downtrodden certainly makes more sense, but that can have a knock on effect that we don't know will happen to the overall society.

Which will be negative and knock us backwards.

2:18:09

Yeah, and it's a little hard to know.

It's a good way.

It's a good way to look at it.

I I see.

I don't want to.

And how do you, and sorry to cut you off, I mean, I don't mean anyone listening to think I want to advocate to not help anybody.

But it's about diverting resources, right and losing focus sort of thing.

2:18:26

Well, the the problem I have with this is I don't necessarily know who is being helped.

Like, I don't even know if we're, if this is the same thing anymore.

You know, like I I think there were certain civil rights movements and there were certain like gay rights movements.

2:18:44

And I'm not like and even now there are still those sort of organizations that are sort of pushing for those, pushing those agendas and you know, achieving maybe some small, you know, greater, you know, inclusion somewhere.

2:19:02

And that's that's all fine.

But I, I really get the sense that these days when you're talking about some of these things, it's it's not, it's not really benefiting anybody anyway.

Like all it is is a witch hunt.

Like you just have people, you know, with the Searchlight going over Twitter trying to find who has said something wrong that they can sort of, you know, set up on the pyre to like you to cancel.

2:19:29

But to put in religious terms, it's almost like the false light.

Right.

Sounds like you're trying to do the right thing but you're really not helping anyone right.

They're helping to aggrandize themselves and some you know notion that they're on the right side of history and I don't I just don't think that that's true anymore.

2:19:47

I think that the I think that the I think that you're you've hit such a point of diminishing returns and in the sense of and I don't mean for everything I like you know this is I'm over generalizing but it's like like there are and.

The the problem I have is that we're not talking about disenfranchisement.

2:20:05

We're not talking about like people who, you know, the mentally ill, the physically incapable.

We're not talking about people who are blind.

We're not talking about we're talking about people's skin color, their gender, their sexual preferences.

And these are the things where it's like everybody already has the rights.

2:20:20

Like there are, there is certainly some, you know, equality of outcome that like things aren't, you know, everybody's not equal.

Nobody's ever going to be equal.

And you know, this obsession with like just holding the microscope to every little, you know, something.

2:20:38

Somebody says it's going to be said they're taken the wrong way.

And think it actually solves things.

Did you see they came out with this?

I guess every corporation must have it these days.

Maybe yours does too.

The NHL came out with this shiny PDFs.

I don't know where they presented about the the gender breakdown.

2:20:55

The gender breakdown, the race breakdown, and even the sexual breakdown of people playing for the NHL, I did.

I saw.

Something and it really fancy looking pie charts and stuff like that.

Yeah, like, so are they gonna sit there and then argue like, well look, we only have 1% of the players are gay.

2:21:11

That's obviously systemic, systemic problems, right, Right.

We just, you know, it's our fault that gay players don't play more hockey that.

It's that.

Is not solving anybody's issues about their their rights to be gay and whatnot and and if you bump in and there are already laws that exist that someone is treating somebody bad For these reasons.

2:21:31

You know, hate.

Crime, or whatever you want to call it.

There's already existing laws, but everybody's just like, shining up their front.

Porch to look like they're better.

Like, no I know.

Look at us.

Look, we have so many more.

Yeah, I don't.

It's like George Costanza when he wanted to pretend he had a black friend, so he proved he wasn't racist.

2:21:47

You know, like like just just be nice guy and meet people and talk, man.

You have like, you know, like why is the.

I don't know, I go back to the little house on the Prairie and like all the small town where everybody can see one another.

And therefore you go to church just because you want to be no one as a family that goes to church, right.

2:22:03

And now with social media.

The all eyes are, even though we're not anonymous anymore, cuz all eyes are on us and therefore the church is you know, these pie charts and everything else showing that we are as pious as the as the religion tells us to be.

Yeah, yeah, that's.

2:22:20

They're setting a new standard, yeah.

Setting a new standard.

And so instead of having this small, small population base, Little House and Prairie Style, where you had the sense of shame because everybody knew one another.

And then we got to big cities and you lost that sense of shame because we became anonymous.

The shame is back.

2:22:36

And the shaming.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Because of of social media.

Yeah.

And you wonder how much of this is, I mean, I think I, I hope that on an individual basis, if you take some people aside and it's kind of like the people private messaging you, it's like, you know, you take them aside and say like, look, do you really believe this stuff?

2:22:54

Like, do you really believe that this is a vote?

Yeah, this is something, yeah.

Let's have a secret anonymous vote and then then let's see because I I really think that this is like you know for example think the NHL or any corporation they they have these board meetings are like this is what's important these days to society.

2:23:09

This is what's going to help our brand grow, is that we fully, you know, we have to be seen as as enthusiastic as possible about righting all the wrongs of the past and like making sure we have equal representation everywhere.

And you have departments whose job it is to kind of boost that they're going to be invested in it because that's their job.

2:23:28

You have other people who aren't going to want to look like they're on the wrong side of social issue.

And you have executives who are like, sure I'll sign whatever you want me to sign if this is going to raise our stock price and if this is going to, you know, keep me out of any kind of fire.

Like you don't want to be the CEO who's like, like no, we're not going to do this because.

2:23:45

And then because God knows they'll be on Twitter being cancelled and you know, like this person said no to to diversity.

So it's, you know, and they mean maybe they really what they said was like, no, we just, I didn't say no to diversity.

I just think that people, you know, if they want to play for the NHL, they can try out, you know what I mean?

2:24:02

Like.

Very supposed to.

Going back to like, are we supposed to then look at basketball and say, why isn't there enough white basketball players?

Yeah, exactly.

I would never dare say such a thing.

Well, you would, Yeah.

You know, I just, it's just, you know why, like why are even looking at that?

Yeah, you know, it's so divisive and and so, so stupid.

2:24:20

Like it really is like, and I don't know, you know, it's like it's like you you're talking about like advanced calculus or something.

And then you have somebody stumbling over arithmetic.

And the ones stumbling over arithmetic are the ones running the country and it's are the, you know, the Western world.

Have you heard this expression before?

2:24:36

I would rather have the 1st 2000 people in the phone book rule me than 2000 faculty at Harvard University.

Yeah, that's a good.

Which which of the two actually gives you real diversity?

Yeah.

Real diversity.

Assuming that that phone book is from a large city right.

2:24:54

Like I think it's really that that Harkins right to the death by over specialization right.

Like this is where we're getting into like we're we're killing our society through specialization because we don't have generalists anymore.

Like the whole idea of democracy works so well because you're getting a general vibe of the nation right.

2:25:11

But now we're having these like things attics.

Was that the correct word for it being pushed down to us from a minority of?

Intelligentsia at the top who don't actually represent what the actual people want at the bottom.

Yeah.

And furthermore, no discussion.

And if you speak out against it, just like the Church, your heretic.

2:25:30

Yeah.

That for me, just doesn't bode well in any sort of intellectual way.

And it's going to bite us in the ass and we're gonna fall backwards.

You know what?

And the more and more we talk about this because you sort of propose this idea as an episode.

And I was like, OK, like I can see kind of see that or whatever, But the more you're talking, the more the parallels are very obvious, right?

2:25:50

Like I always.

Sort of.

I have a rough.

Way of getting through it, and you're certainly the wordsmith, but my instincts of something being up here, and we've been here before and it's not good.

Like, I really feel that in my soul.

Yeah, I definitely feel it's not good.

But I mean even just the the the fact that it is when just the parallels to the Dark Ages and the parallels to it isn't.

2:26:14

It isn't just like about COVID, it isn't just about like you know, trans issues or whatever.

It is a fundamental rot in society that is, I think, happening because of number of factors, technology probably being the main one.

2:26:29

It's a weapon.

It's a tool.

Who benefited during the Dark Ages?

The Big Tech.

Right.

And so who's benefiting today?

All the of the oligarchs and the billionaires and the and the institutions.

And it's not going to help the little person.

But in the end, it's like, who is benefiting at all from any of this?

2:27:07

That's what they have, Monaco.

Like, other than like at the end of the day, like, yeah, sure, you live more islands or whatever, but like, eventually you get like, I mean, how many, even if like even billionaire multibillionaire, still want to go and wander around a city street and not just be horrified that it's, like turned into something out of a post?

For yeah.

I've heard that before, Mon.

Why does Monaco exist?

It's the grand prize for when you're a multi billionaire.

Yeah.

Yeah, you have to have a grand prize somewhere.

Yeah, yeah.

What's that?

It's a small place, like I can't house that many.

There's not that many billionaires, I guess.

2:27:24

Yeah, yeah.

Again, to rebut my point, no.

The world is we're gonna have lots of interesting technology, and living standards probably won't plummet.

But your ability to create your living standard through your own means may be severely regulated, and it may be more based on handouts from these benevolent leaders rather than actually produced from your own free will.

2:27:55

And that, for me, is the step backwards.

It's not the material that you actually have in your life, it's how you got it.

Right.

That's that's enlightenment.

Yeah.

You know, to be in a beautiful, well cared for it.

Prison is still a prison, right?

2:28:11

I don't think it's going to.

All of a sudden the sky is going to be permanently Gray and we're all wearing drabby clothes and waiting lines for bread as we wait for a digital ID to say you have one piece of bread.

No, it won't look like that.

But the fact that you don't get to produce your own wealth, I think that will be severely diminished, yeah.

2:28:30

And that's where people derive a great deal of their satisfaction in life, so.

Well, to to be, to have a life of meaning, to have a life of production, yeah, I think it's just a healthy way of being.

2:28:46

And these technocrats don't look at it like that.

We're just little batteries and a giant Organism that they want to plug us in for, you know, metaphorically very matrix like, you know, and just coming back to the dark ages, Jason, Like, I think a lot of it has to do just with our mindset.

2:29:03

And and and maybe through the whole Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we've reached this point now where we're having a negative effect on our on our way of reviewing the world And it's just a lot of arrogance that is creeping into our decision making our policies and a certain you know through technology we feel we have these godlike powers and you know you get a good interest rate on your mutual fund and you never need to work again because you're pulling in 10% on 1 billion and you know like this is sort of like.

2:29:32

We've we've untethered ourselves from the physical reality of survival and that has made us become arrogant.

I don't know, for instance, like we just passed this whole COVID period of time and there isn't.

2:29:51

There was an unyielding arrogance that humans could control The natural world, like all the 95 masks in the world aren't going to stop colds and flus forever.

Because a viruses, viruses are just more patient than people will eventually slip up and all viruses will will just return.

2:30:11

And yet we still kept we still we still we we're pushing it beyond its point and we still keep pushing it.

It's sort of like this like well that we've picked this path and we're just going to have to see it to completion.

And if you were to poll, I bet you'd get a large proportion of society that would say we should keep masking forever.

2:30:30

Yeah, well, I think they have done polls and there are there's at least a a significant part of society that does say that or maybe not forever, but you know whatever the the highest limit of the poll was.

Yeah, and you know, this arrogance can really, you can really, you know, bite us in the butt after, because I'm not convinced that the vast majority of this theater does anything to delay the spread.

2:30:53

I really haven't seen any good data.

And even if it did delay the spread.

That would only mean that we're selecting for fitter viruses.

You know viruses that can spread with less and less breath.

So through arrogance we're actually creating the problems that could bring the next variant that is far more deadly or far more transmissible.

2:31:11

Yeah.

So I don't know maybe people in the 60s felt like this with a nuclear bomb and you know they we don't need to armies anymore.

We just drop a bomb in your country and the whole thing is done and but but it's certainly I think.

The danger is much more quick and global, our arrogance, the reach of it.

2:31:31

Well, I think that there is.

I agree that there does seem to be a degree of arrogance in in people these days, which bordering on hubris.

Where you get this, where is this idea?

2:31:48

I think they've it's sort of been conferred upon people because everybody sort of knows that the age that they're living in is unlike any other due to the technological innovations it.

Becomes a God.

It does religion.

You know when you have.

It has transcended humanity to a new level.

2:32:04

Yeah.

Well and when you have kids these days being, you know, they're born into this.

So they're born with, you know, a phone.

They're born with all these, you know, whereas it's almost like an appendage or it's, you know, it's like an extension of themselves and like the their sort of social world as an extension of themselves and in that world they can make themselves be whatever they'd like to be, right.

2:32:25

So it's it's it's almost this.

And they'll pay for it.

They'll pay for a better looking gear in the metaverse.

Or what was that video game that all the kids were really into and they're paying like 10s of thousands of dollars so that their avatars will look cooler?

I don't.

Know one of the ones that was free to play, but basically the whole idea was like, I know, I know, young kids who live at home that were spending thousands of dollars on upgrades.

2:32:49

Not to actually make their character do more in the game, but just to look cooler right in the game.

Like the virtual clothing, they spent more on that than actual, real clothing in the real life.

Right.

Right.

Which is really interesting.

But it's it's also very teenagery.

2:33:05

You know like everybody's you know how I'm sure you overpaid for clothes when you were a kid or like you wanted to have the better you know bike or whatever.

Like you know I know I did but but when you.

Those had real.

Like, I dare to say, real world consequences.

2:33:22

Yeah, so are we saying then that this virtual world has real world consequences?

Well, it does.

To the degree they're willing to spend real world money on it to such a large amount, I don't want to veer too much into cuz that's a whole other thing that we talk about sometimes, which you know is very fascinating.

2:33:38

But it's like we could talk about the real world versus virtual world because I think we differ on that and it's kind of an exciting conversation.

But like I more meant I guess with this.

Whereas I think that I think there's this sort of notion that that out there as long as they've got their, you can go on to social media and you have your cohort of people, your your mob, let's call it all advocating some, you know, whatever the newest thing is.

2:34:08

It truly is a mob.

Yeah, it's worky and and and and it really is like they're determining.

I mean, when you see like these massive corporations changing the logo on the, you know, making sure that they have all the appropriate, you know, flags or like, you know, slogans or whatever like next to their logo there, I can see how, like, you know, younger people born into this might think I'm affecting, I'm affecting change, I'm affecting the destiny of the world.

2:34:36

Why?

Why shouldn't I know why?

Like that There is sort of almost like a God like power in that for for people who I think that.

I think that it's easy in this day and age with everything that we're capable of, to think that we've sort of got it all figured out and whatever is the most common trend.

2:34:57

Sorry to cut you off on the we think we got it all figured out part.

Yeah.

I think that's where we got it wrong We we think we have it all figured out and that's the arrogance.

So we we look at technology and you know.

Electricity and how do we, you know, everything that builds modern society, heating, food distribution, like we've got it all figured out.

2:35:16

The part that we don't have figured out, I think is actually ourselves as humans.

We think we haven't figured out through technology.

But going back to, you know, what makes society actually run?

Are we Are we now looking at diminishing returns on?

Like the things that got us here, the structure of a family of the the value of two loving parents involved in raising a child versus one.

2:35:41

The financial needs to meet that child's education.

And and should it be that expensive to begin with because university is becoming you know, where are we going to have like a education system where if you make it to university for so you're not going to know shit, And secondly how many people can actually go there?

2:35:57

Because it's too expensive.

And if you do manage to go there, are you saddled with so much debt that you can actually do anything productive in your life because you're paying your debt for your shit education to begin with?

Like that stuff I think we have not figured out right.

And so there's a apex, a small niche amount of people that have, you know, give us this sort of illusion.

2:36:15

That, you know, the material world is doing so much better, but we haven't still figured out, I think, what makes for a better society.

And it's through a better society that we get these technological gains.

Yeah, I think we're focusing through arrogance too much on the on the technological side.

2:36:33

Yeah.

You know organic food.

Is it truly better?

Let's have a discussion.

Does it have to all be organic?

I don't know.

Maybe part of it.

What percentage?

How about BPA inside your plastic bottles?

What type of exercise do you really need to do?

Look at this COVID time.

How much?

How much?

2:36:48

Did any world government say take this moment to get fit?

You know, like you didn't hear that at all.

So do we really have it figured out or was it simply like defer to the technological gods and they'll figure it out for you and you do Netflix and chill?

Is there is any more infuriating statement is like it's basically stay in your prison and just have your Netflix, you know?

2:37:10

So no, I don't, I don't think we have it figured out.

The same fault could have also happened, and has happened to two the ancient Greeks, Egyptian Sumerians.

They thought they had technology of gods.

Right.

And it's the arrogance that gets built into society.

Well, of course we can expand the Roman Empire infinitely.

2:37:27

We're the Roman Empire, right?

Well, wait a second.

And the technologically minded person during the height of the Roman Empire.

But like, but look, we've we've, we're in England, we're in Africa, we're in every major continent.

Everybody speaks Latin.

You know, we will go on forever.

There's been nothing like this before.

2:37:44

We should be so proud of ourselves.

And it collapsed.

So why does it collapse?

Like that's that's what I'm trying to get.

It's the arrogance like so this again 3 generations or 1000 from now they'll be looking at the technological things they can do and think we are being arrogant today because and they won't see their own arrogance cuz like well now we can just do so much more.

2:38:06

And it's our human fault that we keep thinking we've reached this point of a of the level of gods that we don't need to take care of sort of the things that God is here in the 1st place, right?

The more basic needs loving relationships.

2:38:22

You know, I saw an article in the Guardian the other day, like, do you even really need to have a significant other ever in your life?

And like this, like, everything is so like atomic, like you're just his own little particle.

Right.

And there's no more connection to society.

Yeah.

You know, and it's almost, it's almost spoken about in a way that it's like this is the better way to be.

2:38:41

Right.

And so my point is, I don't think we've understood what actually makes for a better loving, nurturing human.

And technology is just a window dressing.

And that changes with every century.

Yeah, I agree with that.

2:38:58

And the underlying pinning to this is arrogance cuz we're leaning on technology going my God and you know how it is too.

Like this is a bad psychological thing, but a lot of times in experiments like.

The Zimbardo's prison experiment.

Because you're allocated with a certain asset, you tend to then think you deserved it more than others.

2:39:19

You must have done something in your previous life or this life to get something right, right.

So there's an arrogance that comes in as well, somehow.

We're just inherently better than previous generations now because look at everything we have.

We must have done something more right, right, you know?

2:39:35

And that then.

Makes us maybe turn back on previous generations ago.

How dare they?

They had colonialization.

Well, every country tried to take over their neighboring countries.

You know, like find me, find me an empire that did made themselves an empire by not expanding right?

That there is no one?

Well, by definition, yeah.

2:39:51

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So, you know, so I think there's a problem here in that we haven't really understood human nature.

And it's through not understanding human nature that we keep faulting.

The thing is, I think I understand human nature.

I just don't.

I just don't like the looks of it.

2:40:07

You know what I mean?

I think that it sounds amazing.

Well, one of the things I don't mean, I I just mean like in general we probably know it.

You have this cyclical process that keeps happening over and over again.

And you have this, you know, you have the people building the great aqueducts of Rome.

2:40:27

But you also have the plebs who are, who are trying to be, who are like, I don't know, like they're the ones voting for the people to expand the empire further or whatever because they're like, why not.

I think there's that there's that kind of, it does get into this like hubris or this arrogance and but I think it happens like.

2:40:45

With the mob kind of thing.

I think it's the mob that's the problem like we are.

We more in a mob phase ever than ever before through social.

Media for sure, For sure.

I think that it's like, I think that the problem is that the people don't take the time.

Like people aren't thinking about, how do I say this.

2:41:05

I think just a lot of the people are, you know, for lack of a better word, just sheep like.

And I used to say like, you know, it's like 90% of the people are sheep.

And you have like kind of 10% who are kind of like are thinking outside of the box a little bit and then you have like 1% who is like kind of the leaders and they have that .001% or whatever or the .01% that are like the the geniuses or whatever that, yeah.

2:41:27

And I think that's what propels society forward.

But you unfortunately just dragged down by the 90%.

I know that sounds like really like sure but then strengthening the sheep like going back to what is human nature and how to make for a better overall average human.

It has to be the key fundamental factor for sure.

2:41:44

And we're we're just, we're just like sprinkling like the candy around the top of the ice cream in terms of technological progress, not realizing that the ice cream itself is rotten and melting.

Yeah.

But look at all these wonderful things we have, you know, like the core for me, it's like the base has to be strong and then you move forward.

2:42:03

And I, when I see the base, when I see maybe generation after generation, we're not learning from our own mistakes.

And I don't mean technological, I mean more societal.

That will be our undoing in some sort of cyclical fashion over and over again.

And it doesn't matter what technology, because Can you imagine how how arrogant they may have felt building these amazing equidox?

2:42:25

We now bring water to places we never had water before?

Yeah, that is exactly when spoken in that terms.

The way someone might say about fusion technology today, We can now do things that only the gods could do, right?

Right.

Yet that empire collapsed.

2:42:42

Yeah, no, I I can see this.

I'm saying it in a very rough and not not well thought out way.

But I feel like there's an essence of energy there that we're just we're focused in the wrong we need to have technology.

I love technology, but there's just a there's there's more to it than just that, that's more a result of rather than than the actual meat and potatoes.

2:43:04

Yeah, yeah.

I don't disagree with you like I don't disagree with you that there's like that.

That is the problem.

I just think that it's it's almost like we have to.

The problem is the masses and how to get the masses to just because of the sheer number of them, right.

2:43:20

Like I like and it's kind of like when everybody you had a sort of earlier time maybe where it was like you know people had their families, they had the communities, they were happy there wasn't like this.

The problem with technology is it amplifies the stupidity of of people, right, Like so you don't have like you have everybody having an equal voice like online or whatever.

2:43:40

So you have somebody who?

Hasn't researched, you know vaccine technology or whatever and is saying like, you know, like I like of course follow the science or whatever or you have somebody who hasn't, just just hasn't, doesn't have.

2:44:00

I used to have people who were experts in the subject discussing these things, and you still have that to some extent where people you know, you'll hear them on a podcast or something where they're, you know, they're experts in their field and they're sort of talking about their field, but.

Because of social media and because of this kind of like crowd mentality, you have people, you know, sharing.

2:44:22

You'll have somebody say something that they're that isn't well thought out, is a, you know, you want want to call it a conspiracy theory or just like something that just doesn't really have any basis in fact that gets shared just, you know, instantly because there's a bunch of people that are, you know, it's titillating or whatever.

People don't do the research, but people think that that's.

2:44:40

Keep like those people wield the same power in a in an aggregate as the experts do.

Because there's so many of them and because they they've formed their own little.

Maybe This is why the experts are trying to create a more centralized top down, maybe feature now because they realize this, you know?

2:44:57

Maybe you see technology and they're kind of looking at this and like, Oh my God, we can't still have democracy.

And like, you know, we can't have these people all.

We can't be held to the whim of the crowd.

We might have just maybe they have actually said, can we actually still have democracy in light of the digital mob that exists today?

2:45:15

And how do you tighten up democracy in order to survive right through digital ID's or digital currencies?

Like a tightening of society to keep its reins together?

Because we can become unhinged just from the sheer power of the mass of voices that can now be heard on equal footing.

2:45:34

Yeah.

Well, it's it's kind of like that you always hear when there's an election, everything get out and vote, right.

And I I've always taken exception with that because it's like, I mean for example, this municipal election we have coming up like there is one.

Yeah, exactly.

Like I'm not voting for it because I don't know anything about it.

2:45:51

I haven't been following it and I don't really care like I maybe I should.

I probably should, because it probably affects my life more than a federal election even would.

But I just, it's I don't have the interest somehow.

You know why?

I can tell you why?

Why?

Because I think we're similar on this point, Federal and maybe even they're, they're more like global issues and therefore more longer reaching into the future.

2:46:14

Whereas and yes, they're further removed from your everyday life, but they're the bigger topics, right.

You're not talking on the federal level about potholes.

Yeah, right.

And potholes just don't interest you, right?

Right.

Whereas the mayor is a it's more it's a it's the microcosm.

2:46:30

They will actually maybe make your life.

And is it for mayor or is it?

Well, yeah, they're some are mayor and.

City Council I think yeah so you know that will have a more but it's just seems so like diminut.

I just me too.

I don't want to spend much time thinking about it.

I'm not interested.

Yeah, on the smaller.

2:46:45

Life's too short.

I just for me, I'm just more.

I like the bigger picture.

But so yeah, and and so, So I'm not going to vote because I don't know what I'm doing.

So like for somebody to say to me like, well, did you vote?

And it's like, no, I didn't.

It's like, well, I know you gotta get out there.

It's like, why?

So I can give my ignorant opinion and just like randomly check something because then it just that just do you think creates more noise ignorant though about the local than the federal.

2:47:07

I think it's more knowledge of the federal.

I mean, I well, it's the stuff that I'm actually researching, right?

Like or like, you know, to some extent I at least keep up when I see certain like a friends who like, you know, they know every single problem in downtown Toronto.

Like, wow, I was born and raised here, but I didn't know the graffiti was there and the water was there.

2:47:26

Like I just don't pay attention.

Those are the people that should be voting.

Yeah, I think yes, yes.

And I really don't.

I don't care to know those smaller issues on a daily basis.

But, but you see what I'm saying like this is what I mean about democracy is like, it isn't.

It isn't necessarily inherently good to get out and vote.

I get the principle behind it.

2:47:41

I get you want an active population into what you're voting for.

Yeah, you have to.

We have to understand.

You have to understand it.

Like, you have to have a reason to to be doing it.

It has to be based on something.

Or if you don't, you're just adding to the noise.

And that's the problem with democracy.

So like, you know, it may be better than any other system we have, but it isn't.

2:47:59

I don't know how well it's going to translate into this digital way, really.

I said something of the same going back to, you know, classically or like, and I'm going to get this really wrong, But like if 10 million people say stupid idea is a good idea, it's still a stupid idea, right?

You know, a lot of these emperors were pretty against democracy, actually.

2:48:17

Yeah, no doubt.

You know, and I can, I can.

And it's a bit of a centralization of power, like more like the the philosopher kings, right?

Like let those who truly know what's best run, you know.

The problem is.

And it can work really well when you have a great leader.

The problem is when you get someone like a Nero in charge.

2:48:34

So, you know, they depended on it, but now they're trying to replace that with the algorithm.

The algorithm will be the benevolent philosopher king.

So, yeah, because I was just going to ask you, like, let's maybe try to run with us a little bit, like, because, you know, if democracy doesn't work, we know monarchy doesn't work.

2:48:50

Like, you know, fascism doesn't work.

Communism certainly doesn't work.

So, like, where are we headed?

Like, I think you have a tendency to be the Borg.

I think.

I think you like that.

What do you mean by that?

Because you were saying something earlier too, about humans being flawed and the masses and not understanding, and it just like 1% of 1% of 1% are actually fit to rule.

2:49:10

It's very, it's very structural.

But the board are more communist, aren't they?

Well, there is one Hive leader.

Right, right, right.

And that one hive leader is the fraction of percentage that actually do something, and all the other ones are just like this cannon fodder.

2:49:26

Right, right, right.

Well, see, I don't think anybody there should be principles like this is obviously a difficult thing to talk about because like.

There should be underlying principles, I don't think.

I think everybody should have the right to freedom.

They should have freedom of choice or anything like that.

I just think that it's like it's a mistake to kind of let the ignorant people kind of guide where society is going.

2:49:49

I completely agree.

But look, was it not ignorant to have QR codes during COVID yet?

That came from the top down and the ignorant.

People at the bottom believed it exactly.

I don't want to be sitting beside somebody on vaccinated.

Can you show me the actual data that says that's true?

Neither the top nor the people at the bottom could say that.

2:50:09

Right, right.

Right, so how do you solve?

That I think it's almost like you need.

Maybe it is algorithmic that you need, maybe that's the point, but you have to build out an algorithm that has.

All these first principles that we can all get behind and and even democratically get behind, so we can vote on these kinds of things, because this will be like the one thing where we decides who decides what gets put into the algorithm.

2:50:31

Yeah, like, I think because there's certain things where, you know, if this is something where it's like we're going to design a new society here, everybody gets a vote, then everybody should be like invested in that at least.

But, you know, just having like elections, you know, and even these leaders anyway, it's not like it's, I don't know, it's interesting like I can almost see like a parliamentary system where you have the humans around, we all sort of through our, through our elected representatives.

2:50:56

They are our voices in terms of where the technocratic algorithm should go in the future.

Yeah.

So you actually have a hybrid of the two.

Yeah, I think there's a the humans democratically are voting through their MP's.

And then the algorithm is the cating for the algorithm.

2:51:11

What to actually add to the algorithm.

Add to the algorithm?

Yeah, Advocate for the algorithm.

And then through that you have something which is more fundamental and more permanent and more.

2:51:33

And like beyond, beyond debate, right.

Like like just because everything is for an algorithm is going to boil down to a yes or no.

It's not going to boil down to a mushy maybe or like a, you know, sometimes in this case, sometimes not in that case.

I, you know, you don't want to get too heavy-handed with that stuff.

2:51:48

And there's obviously nuance in this and that.

And I don't know if we should take judges out of the equation or anything like that if you're talking about like in terms of the judicial.

But you know, I think there's a way to, you know, if you have some.

First principles based on like freedoms and like you know military engagement should where should we go to war?

2:52:08

Should we ever go to war?

Should it just be a defense thing to to to your point, Do you think they couldn't have built an algorithm?

It said what is your personal risk factor to covet?

And the algorithm says you should get a vaccine or not based on your own individual like, the algorithm could be very tailored just to you.

Yeah, there's a Yeah, exactly.

2:52:24

In the positive, empowering sense, right.

And saying like you were, you know, 80%?

You don't have this one-size-fits-all approach.

More likely to get or you're three times as you're three times more at risk getting the vaccine than you would be getting at risk of severe health or whatever.

2:52:42

And then even then you have the choice to get it or not.

But that's that's you know, nobody can kind of question afterwards.

It's like, well, like then the question wouldn't be like, well, you didn't give the vaccine, it'd be like, well, what did your it would be like, well, what did your risk algorithm say?

And if yours was 9010, then therefore maybe you would be shunned out because it's a 9010 thing.

2:52:59

Yeah, those that are closer aren't.

Yeah, Yeah.

You could definitely build fairness into the algorithm.

Yeah, yeah, I think you know what it is.

It's just like, have we stumbled into a new way to get ourselves out of the?

Dark, I think we just created.

I think we just created a way out, Sir.

2:53:17

Well, I think that this, it's got to be something like that, right?

Like it's got to be something based in technology, but based but based having human ethics and having like still the sort of inherent, like it should never be that a person can't choose something or that their freedoms are impugned upon at all.

2:53:37

So you have.

Like that's all got to kind of be built in and there's got to be like, but you you've we've got to get away from the system we're using now.

Like it's just it's a harmful system.

I I mean it's it's really kind of a dead or dying system.

Like when you look at like Biden and Trump like sort of classic example or Clinton and like Hillary and Trump like or any real leader like over the past like few decades of any country like this in the Western world.

2:54:02

Like you have this kind of like generic, like, you know, OK, yeah, it's very fake.

It's very fake.

And it's kind of like, it's not like the people really have much of A choice anyway.

It's like, OK, you want to vote for Trump or Biden?

I mean, I guess Trump was a little bit different, but he wasn't really as radical as was seen, right.

2:54:20

So, like, so I don't know.

You just get this, you know, I think that it would just be better for society to have a little more like with it.

With an algorithm you have more granularity look, so it can be more customized for a person because those kinds of things would be built in.

2:54:37

But you also don't have just people, you know it's not based on like well this, this county got like this number of votes.

Top of the algorithm is if we start to lean on it too much and defer to it too much and we go back to the, I think maybe the sin of our ages, convenience, because that's I think that's I think, you know, I think I would advocate for convenience being a sin.

2:54:57

You know, pride.

You know all the other classic ones don't sound bad on the outside and when you dig them, dig through them a bit, they're actually quite they can be there's a dark side to them, a flip side.

So yeah, I would, I would add convenience as a deadly sin this that we we have to make sure that it doesn't it, that type of system can go totalitarian so quickly.

2:55:18

Yeah, for sure.

And it has have a rock solid constitution and a rock solid legal system that is unfettered through government or corporate powers to manipulate them, you know, So it's this.

So the algorithm in a sense stays pure.

Well, you could do something like the Bitcoin and have like a sort of an original set of rules that everything is governed by, but you then you can vote with your sort of voting power.

2:55:44

I guess it then becomes a little bit like what we have now, but it becomes a complete opposite of Bitcoin in a sense of like we have the we have Bitcoin, yes.

And then we have what the government's trying to create Cbdc's central bank digital currencies, which basically are a centralized Ledger where the government can see absolutely everything based on the underlying technology of what makes Bitcoin work.

2:56:02

Yeah, I guess.

I just mean like taking the algorithm in a more centralized, controlling and pseudo totalitarian sort of way.

Yeah, yeah, you have to have something that is transparent but like immutable, but well, immutable but still subject to changes because but maybe changes that are voted upon.

2:56:23

But the vote can't just be like everybody gets a vote.

It needs to be like everybody who has an interest in this particular bit of legislation or has some expertise to bear, like there's going to be some sort of weight to the to the votes, I think.

2:56:40

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, voting and in just education and you know, a lot of times like let's say something, let's say you and I agree something should happen but the masses weren't smart enough to vote for it.

Well, we shouldn't be have any kind of mechanism.

We're just going to force it on them through more education and talking and then slowly it really has to come back down to democracy and you got you got to convince people this is the right way to go.

2:57:00

Right.

I guess it's just, yeah, I didn't even embrace it culturally.

Like, really like a like a really strong, big, really strong foundation.

So, well, I'm just sort of thinking out loud here, but yeah, this is all out of hoc.

2:57:15

Like, this isn't well thought out, I realized.

It's like, you know, pretty, you know?

So what if you had like a kind of the blue or the the framework for a system.

You have like sort of a protocol that works and some of the fundamental principles that are in there are like you know you can't force anybody to do anything unless XYZ whatever.

2:57:36

They are like small but like you know indefinable.

So like you kill somebody then you get relegated down or whatever, but you but but those are the kind of like.

You can't go against those.

So if you have people, for example, like you, you get into a situation where they people want to impose, for example, like mandates and like mass mandates or whatever, it gets referred back to this original blueprint.

2:58:01

There's no fuzziness, there's no like, there's no like.

Well, this is an unprecedented situation or whatever.

If I hear Trudeau say unprecedented times one more time, it's like it'll lose it.

As Canadians, thanks for defining what a Canadian is, buddy, the first one says.

2:58:18

We're a post nation state.

Right.

Lovely.

I knew I shouldn't have brought up Trudeau like so disappointed.

But you you get you you they wouldn't be able to sort of do that, right.

Because that would be like, well that goes against, you know, whatever you know definition in this protocol like that that's like kind of errors out or something.

2:58:41

So they they can't do that.

So they have to find another way to kind of, well, this is the problem.

Back to dark ages.

Science itself is broken.

So like, let's say that algorithm is going to refer to some medical studies in order to say, yes, masks are efficacious or they're not, right.

2:58:56

Well, who paid for these studies and where are they published And who were the peers that actually reviewed it?

Right.

You know, so The thing is like it's only garbage in, garbage out, right?

Unfortunately, I almost think we need this is an anti algorithm statement.

We almost need to stay away from things that are so algorithmic in the sense because we need the whole mess, we need all the voices on the table because the voices we're getting, if we're going to go to something like an algorithm are not unbiased enough, right?

2:59:27

So we need to so in the in the in in lack of having unbiased answers then we need to simply have all all the different opinions on the table and it's gonna be so and arduous and work through them, right.

That really bothers me.

2:59:42

What's happened to science now that scientists can't speak out and certain peer things don't get reviewed or certain studies get elevated, other studies get diminished.

You know like how many studies are there on ivermectin?

You can't have a conversation about it, right?

2:59:58

And then yet you hear like.

We have this one study from Spain showing in an XYZ drug and therefore now the government's going to run with it, right?

So why does the standard get lowered from a bureaucratic point of view when it's something that the government wants but it has to get lift as such a high standard in in a certain other, you know, in this case I'm saying I ever met him, but it could be anything else, can't even get through like in.

3:00:21

So that's data coming into the algorithm, right.

So we need to we need to fix all of it.

And I I don't know if it'll get fixed.

And that's where I feel like we're we're gonna, we're gonna crumble.

I think we're actually going we're close to having a wonderful utopia.

But unless we fix those basic, fundamental, foundational if you don't have science you can trust, you can't lean on science to save you in the future.

3:00:48

All right.

So like I think a lot of our conversation has been I I think that the the parallel between.

You know, it does seem as though there's, there's something to this whole notion of sort of living in a new dark age, as much as it's as difficult as it is to sort of diagnose where you're living while you're living in it.

3:01:05

Where where were you at the beginning of this conversation that never, we never actually talked about, you know, Full disclosure, like where are you?

Were you thinking this is absolutely bonkers or are you ending where you thought you would be ending?

I think that.

What held me back like, I mean it's easy to sort of say like, like, yeah, you know, I like with all the, you know, it's very easy kind of argument to make that we're living in a time that, you know, because of the the freedom of speech, the the restrictions on that and some of the stuff that's happening in Canada and in the United States like.

3:01:41

And and I think with that kind of thing you can say like okay, Yeah, It seems like we're living in a bit of dark age.

But I think in general I was like well.

I mean that's one thing but I mean when you think of like what we're doing scientifically, like technologically, like we're kind of really making a lot of progress.

But the more we talk, the more I thought about.

3:01:58

So yeah, I think at the beginning I was like a little, you know, I I felt like this would be a good episode that I would have some good arguments to go against you.

But the more we talk the more I sort of dawn on me.

Yeah, the it's really the the it's.

3:02:15

I think part of the Dark Ages is.

Just that, like this ignorance, like this kind of pall of ignorance that covers a society.

And I think that we're all sort of to some degree responsible for that and and guilty of that.

3:02:33

And I think that we're creating our own Dark Age here with that.

Like we're it's almost willfully, willfully ignorant and it's because of technology.

It's because we have don't have enough time or you know we at least convince ourselves we don't have enough time or you know the powers that we tell us we don't have enough time or you know the commercials we're watching on YouTube tell us we don't have enough time.

3:02:54

I I think what it is is, you know, I can, I can see how this is the kind of thing that destroys societies where you have a population that is.

No longer thinking for itself and no longer accountable to anyone and doesn't have the social structure in the real world.

3:03:16

Like it's sort of been replaced by this sort of ephemeral social structure which is highly dependent on, you know, points as like a point system.

And it's and it's very ephemeral like, it's very like what's the what's what's important now let's make sure you get the right points.

3:03:35

You're saying the right things.

And I think that it's, you know, families and like communities used to be, you know, people would say something stupid or they would say something like, you know, they would have a different opinion than you.

And you would sort it out and you would talk it out.

And you would like sometimes you would be an argument even or that was an algorithm to itself.

3:03:53

Yeah, it was an organic algorithm.

Right.

And it's not like the people didn't say, like I'm sure there was some, you know, small towns or whatever where people would say like, well, I'm like or even at even at home like you don't want to necessarily say.

You know, you might, there might be some things you want to keep to yourself like, but in general, I think there's just a lot more of that going on now.

3:04:18

I think people are like parading out one viewpoint to to the world at large, and then maybe they have their own private viewpoint.

But I think that's even getting muddled.

And I think it's just because they're so distracted with technology and distracted with all the gadgets that it's like they're not even really sure what their opinion is anymore.

3:04:33

The most wonderful distracted by data and knowledge and at the expense of wisdom.

Yeah, maybe.

And the ultimate algorithm, when we used to say, years prior, like the elder and the community, the wisdom they had, what they really just had was an algorithm that had been going on for a long time.

3:04:55

And we're collecting all these different data points and then we're able to crunch the new information and give you a really balanced answer.

Right.

And when we create these new algorithms, I don't think we're creating them in the moment for things that will happen in the future.

Yeah.

3:05:10

So we're almost like cutting wisdom off in the name of data and current knowledge.

Yeah.

So.

And maybe that's just the more technical way of explaining why respecting your elders and having those dinner time talks, you're collecting knowledge and adding to your own personal algorithms.

3:05:29

So when you also get older, you can then therefore distill that accumulated knowledge and help the next generation.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, one of the regrets I had, like my dad was used to be married to a woman and her parents and they were lived just very close to them.

3:05:47

Her parents were both Holocaust survivors.

And I never at the time, because this was like decades ago, I was never all that.

I was like okay, like that's, you know, sad and everything.

But it never really resonated with me as much as it does now with when I think of like like they're both dead now.

3:06:06

But like, I think to myself, oh that would have been amazing to have a conversation with them and like actually like I and I think they knowledge lost.

Knowledge lost, like Steven Spielberg, actually like interviewed them as part of that whole Schindler's List thing.

So you had like they have imparted that to some people.

3:06:21

So it's not like, but I but I wanted that first hand.

Like maybe you know.

You're not going to talk to me the same way you're going to talk to Steven Spielberg.

Right.

So it's like you're when you have a camera on you and everything.

So like, but I would have loved to have like like now I wish I had that wisdom.

I wish I had that knowledge that firsthand.

3:06:37

And we don't sort of see the value of wisdom when we have the chance and.

I I I do think that's something that's missing.

And also it also you can't really see it.

It's not a PDF you can read.

3:06:50

You have to just engage with that wisdom.

You have to sit with that person at the dinner table for three hours, right?

Right.

For decades.

Yeah, no, it's just a lived, slow, organic process.

And that I think is something we've kind of discovered in this talk is that you just, you just can't recreate it on a whim quickly.

3:07:10

You know what it gets.

It's a lived experience.

And so to answer I think what we've kind of stopped what I've.

I came into this thinking we're sliding into some sort of dark age.

Not quite crystallize my thoughts around it.

But I can see now where the target zone that requires more focus and it's that don't be distracted by technology.

3:07:32

If we don't know ourselves, we're going to fall apart and we need to learn ourselves.

And that could be even why God put us on earth.

It's not to have more technological stuff.

It's to know thyself.

Yeah.

And here we're adding and adding Each iteration of humanity every couple 100 years has a new template of a new palette of different technological wonders.

3:07:52

But how much have we actually learned about ourselves?

Yeah, and if we could actually solve the learn ourselves, what would that mean to you as a planet?

Well, how does that look to you?

But I would actually solve ourselves.

So what is it?

3:08:07

But so I I think it, you know, know thyself as the sort of #1 rule I have for this new sort of.

You know rules that I'm following, but really, what does that mean?

Like if you if you want to break it down, like I know what it means for me.

3:08:23

You know it's your best parts, it's your worst parts.

You know it's what it's, you know, action, then motivation.

It's it's so much, it's probably the single hardest thing you can do in your own lifetime.

Right.

It's just why it's so challenging, yes.

And so I would argue, but until we have mastered ourselves as a species, the rest is just sort of fluff.

3:08:46

Yeah, you can argue we live longer.

We have this sort of a societal benefit of heating food, electricity.

But inevitably, I don't think that pushes humanity forward in any truly sustainable and meaningful way.

OK, So what I think we should do is I think we should have a follow up episode to this one and it should be about trying to dissect know thyself what that means and what are some ways that people could implement that could be the cure to the dark ages.

3:09:18

Right, right.

Like well, when you think of it, I mean because because it I, I know what you mean very hard to it's our listeners probably know what you mean too.

But it's like it's like having that common.

You know, almost quantifiable.

What are the 10 things that you need to do to know yourself like what What do you say to somebody who maybe doesn't know what you mean?

3:09:37

Who is made me like if knowing thyself sorry to cut you off.

Knowing thyself isn't it make you then more likely to be unhackable Like you know you're more resistant.

Look at this time during COVID and how quickly people through anxiety and fear, terminated friendships and what not because they were being hacked.

3:09:54

Like from the media and from false information.

If you knew like, oh, if I got to wear a mask, I'm kept inside.

These are the psychological things I'm going to be feeling.

I'll be susceptible to this sort of propaganda.

But I know myself and that won't happen to me, right?

3:10:10

You can stop evil from happening.

It's by not knowing ourselves that we actually let the last two years happen.

Yeah.

No, I think that's that that is the point because everybody had, well, I mean I would say you know you are probably somebody who is fairly, I wouldn't say unshakable, but like I mean you held strong through this whole COVID thing, right.

3:10:31

So it's like I think that there is like I can't tell you why, I'm just curious and I'm very aware of.

It's really hard to articulate these.

It's an algorithm of emotions that circles around you, coming both from within and external, and you have to know what's hitting you and how it's making you feel and how to within adjust to move forward.

3:10:52

Yeah, because it's not necessarily static either.

Like, it's part of knowing yourself is change.

Change itself is, you know, and that dynamism is something that is, you have to know how you're going to roll with that.

Knowing thyself sounds like a static answer, but it totally isn't right.

3:11:08

You know, if the 50 year old me is agreeing with the 20 year old me, I haven't grown it all the last 30 years, right?

You know, but I'm still myself.

Yeah, right.

So that it's really like it's yeah, it sounds like, aha, I know myself but it's a never moving flowing current of water.

Yeah, but there's certain generalized truths that come through that.

3:11:27

And if humanity knew themselves during World War 2, if the Germans knew themselves what they were up against in terms of psychological manipulation, North Korea.

You could go to any sort of Russia and China.

If everybody actually knew themselves, we wouldn't be manipulated into these positions and inevitably risk humanity and risk humanity at large.

3:11:50

Yeah, yeah.

OK.

So yeah, it's a good subject.

We have a leaping It's going to be one heck of a it's.

Going to be good.

It's going to be interesting because I think it's easy to say like, you know, it's like, you know, the take of the Germans in World War 2.

It's like, you know it's.

3:12:07

You know, you always wonder what would you would do, right?

Like would you say, like you know if you're if you're just a German citizen, do you go along with this or are you like like, hey, what the Hell's going on here?

Like even take out the the Jewish question.

Right.

Like just be like OK, why are we going to war with Poland?

Like, you know what I mean?

3:12:23

Like, OK, I get the first bit like, you know you want to like maybe annex some areas that were yours in the past or whatever.

But why are we invading Poland?

And like, why are we then moving into France?

Like, it's gullibility too, right?

Yeah.

Like if you This is our leader.

We have to follow our leader.

Our leader says we need to do this.

3:12:39

He's the expert.

He has all the generals and military experts there.

We need to do this.

Yeah.

It's not that different than deferring your own personal responsibility and doing your own research, yeah.

Now it's funny, you know, we don't even have to go, never mind COVID.

You just have to go back to the Iraq war, right?

3:12:54

And just say like.

Or never mind World War 2, you just have to go to the Iraq war and say like the same thing was there.

You know, the same people, smart people who are just like, well, we got to go into Sudan, take out Saddam.

He's developing weapons of mass destruction like blah, blah, blah, you know, and they just fall for it.

3:13:11

And again and again, it's the same cycle and you can remove all the technology and all the algorithms.

It was the fact that we were gullible as humans and we didn't know thyself that allowed that evil to perpetuate.

Yeah.

And I think part of knowing yourself is knowing what you will tolerate.

3:13:27

I know we can get on into all that.

Like we said, you know, it's like, you know, where do you draw the line at that point anyway?

I think it's going to will be a fertile discussion.

You know, I really enjoyed this conversation.

It pushed.

It was a daunting one.

It's a large one.

3:13:44

We didn't cover nearly anything that you know like the all the stuff notes you have anyway.

You just got to go where the energy goes during the conversation.

But we're on this something and this will this sort, these sorts of conversation actually change my life?

Because it makes me think about what I'm going to do next and and what I've done in the past in a much different terms.

3:14:05

Right.

All good.

Thank you.

Thank you.

This was a great one.

Yeah.

You know, it was a good conversation.

All right, Well, thank you everybody for listening.

Take care.

3:14:38

The.