13 - To Have and to Hold

Transcript

hello my name is Jason and welcome back to a new season of intimate discourse where Dimitri and I along with some of

our esteemed guests will discuss the pressing issues of the day and also explore some of the philosophical questions that tend to unite us all as

humans existing on this great blue planet of ours in our last episode last year I made

some Illusions and even I think downright explicitly said that we would be broadcasting from our new studio this

year and that there would be video and dancing girls and all kinds of exciting

things well events have transpired in the last this has not yet come to pass we are still as of now an audio only

podcast but we'll keep you updated as things move along we have a bunch of great shows for you

this year and we'll be pushing them out to you at a regular Cadence now that we're started halfway through the year

in this episode to having to hold Dimitri and I examined the benefits of

delayed gratification the maritricious Allure of convenience we discuss the proliferation of deep

fakes and how such a phenomenon will affect media going forward we discussed the values and Perils of

doing your own research the god principle questioning whether we need a new digital Charter of Rights and of

course it wouldn't be an episode of ID without discussing the meaning of life

this episode was recorded on March 19 2023 in Toronto Canada

I certainly hope you enjoy the show [Music]

thank you hello and welcome to the show my name is Jason I'm here with Dimitri

hello everybody hello um you'll have to excuse my uh my voice I I

feel I feel like an apology is warranted just because I I haven't uh you know my I've had a cold or something for the

past two weeks and it's taken its toll on my uh maybe the surprise asset maybe

the feet maybe the feedback will be it's even better Jay Maine beef more gritty or a

real or more rustic um so today's uh Today's Show um

try to encapsulate it in one sort of pithy catchphrase and you know I will I

will use a a Moby quote and just say everything is wrong and that's where I

think we should sort of launch this and we're really going to talk about the um

I mean the dissolution of individuality or the fact that

I think it's almost like as you go through um take a look around you today in society

and just so many things are different and there you know some things are better some things are worse but there seems to be a trajectory in place

whereby we are becoming less and less attached to things that

are tangible or things that are something

that can be uh almost possessed in a way um and I'll sort of you know I'll start

this off by way of a little anecdote um when I was a Buddha boy one of my

favorite things is my Dad we used to live in uh you know various suburbs of Toronto hold on sorry one sec you're a

what boy what did I say what up boy oh I was a Buddha boy what's that no I was butt a

boy but a boy oh boy yeah let's see there's the voice I love it it's okay

Surfer or something right right no there's not a lot of surfing in Numerica yeah true

um so uh you lived in the suburbs of the city and back in those days they didn't

have you know uh you know they had CD shops and stuff like that in Newmarket but there was nothing like with the rose

downtown so like my uh my dad would take me my brother uh I would say once every six months or

so down to the big town and we would uh hit all the you know down on Young Street there was like HMV Sam's like a a

and like world's greatest bookstore or there's like um all kinds of places where it's just like um you know going into yeah like an

arcade or something like it's just like everything was shiny and flashing and exciting and um we would spend the day

like you know CD shopping like you know listening to them or like trying to find certain things like we you know there

was a song we liked and I remember one you know one time I was I was looking

for something this is I was very young at this point but there's a song remember Hulk Hogan when he came into the ring he's like a real American or

whatever that song was called like for whatever reason really like that song at the time I was trying to find it everywhere but I couldn't see the kids

version of Eye of the Tiger yeah yeah sub 10 crowd yeah yeah sure but uh I

couldn't find it anywhere I couldn't even I didn't even know what the song was let alone how to find it so I would be going into these places downtown and

just like talking to the staff there I'm like it goes like this and like kind of sing it and eventually finding that's

such a funny kid thing Randy when you're into Bon Jovi or White Snake Hulk Hogan song yeah that's amazing yeah

it's slightly embarrassing now it was a kid yeah and um but but

eventually I found it it was such an exciting treasure you know and then it's like I couldn't wait to get back and like we would go to The Pickle Barrel

for milkshakes and everything afterwards it was like a real great day and you know you come back home with all your

little treasures and like your CDs you to kind of unwrap in the car or whatever and you know you'd get like a bunch of

books a bunch of magazines like Bill mazurovsky's baseball thing was another big thing and it was like

um it was just a very exciting day but you came back and it was I don't know you'd sort of ride that wave for almost

like a week or something of just all these new things these new albums these new songs and everything like that absorb it yeah

um but and I think there was something about that that

maybe people don't have today like kids don't have today or like um I would say

you know the kids of the day don't have those same kinds of experiences so I sort of I thought of that idea and

started okay what else what else is sort of like that that is um you know you can sort of extrapolate

that idea to a larger um a larger um argument or something and uh you know

it's the same thing with like you know using continuing with The Muse the music thing like it's even the fact of like

you know any album like Depeche Mode just released a couple of new songs it was like you know right away it's available like you know and you can hear

it everybody's heard it it's like it takes you you don't have to physically leave The Plight your house to like go

out and buy it or anything like that it's like right there right available um and uh it's the same thing with like

you know you know you're listening to a movie you're watching a movie or you're like um you know even hear a song on the

um well one thing you got me into this at off radio out of Greece which is actually a really good station I've got a lot of good great music coming out of

there it's amazing um but uh you know you just Shazam the song and it's like okay what is it now I know what it is and it's that's it and

it's in fact you know really irritating a few Shazam and it's like you can't find it you're like well wait a minute what do I do now but you know in the old

days they didn't there wasn't that you would it was almost like a research project and you'd have to talk to other people to find out

um if they knew the song or if um so what you're saying is there was value in

actually struggling to get the research that's right there there is an anticipation

there was the yeah it really it was about the sort of the struggle to get

something like you know used to if you wanted to make a dinner if you wanted to impress your girlfriend or something like that and you could like you could

either cook a dinner or take her out to a really nice restaurant and now it's so convenient just to like order we're in and like you're never getting great

meals like it's always coming in it's a little not tepid or whatever like it's not as hot as it should be and it's like packaged in so well this is steam so

like there's for the sake of convenience and for the sake of just like

um you know making things easier and having more stuff like ostensibly that should be a great thing you're like well

we have access to any song We Ever Wanted same thing with Google it's like how many times are you talking to somebody and it's like

uh you you bring up something that's like I can't remember what that uh you know what the what street that house was

on or whatever and then it's like well let's just Google it it's like I guess like or you could just sort of think about it and talk about it and then who

knows what you're going to discover while you flesh out that idea or whatever um but now it's like it's just

everything is sort of instantly googleable yeah and it might even no just I didn't I don't want to talk about this part too long but it might even

just be on a neurological level less healthy like actually thinking about stuff and recalling and using your

memory and everything else you know yeah probably we're too early into this digital age to know the 50 years effects

on the human mind right you could say those who you know do calculations in their brain actually have X amount of

dementia less often like you can see all kinds of studies coming in the future so you know it's like um you could have a

pill that makes you skinny or is it better to actually work out right like there's actually some value in uh taking

it the slow way on on levels that we don't even know like like literally biological levels

social levels biological levels economic levels yeah yeah but but in the end you

know like if I was a 14 year old in our let's say we knew each other then and favorite band came out with a new album

and like okay well Jason you stream it at the same time at my house your house is I'll stream at a miles and we'll be

on our phones and we'll talk about it simultaneously I think you can still find the bond over that I think you can

find the bond um a human connection over the shared experience of listening to music for the

first time true but I think it's more what you said it's part of a struggle it's the

struggle that uh we're missing which is I think in integral to sort of growing

as a human or growing as like um like like I don't know I remember those

I remember the anticipation of those experiences I remember waiting in the car getting there I remember like

thinking okay this this is the week we're going down there to pick and you're in the car together and it's communal and you're chatting about that

and other things it's a whole process it's a journey yeah so you're taking out the journey yeah you're taking out the

journey and it's kind of like you're just getting right to the end of the pot of gold it's like cheat codes and video games it's like okay well you know I

don't know it's like like you could play a game and it's like like oh I have all the answers or you could just take this like um this little like get this Easter

egg and then suddenly you're at the you're at level eight and it's like well why are you even playing the game and what happens the game becomes

exceedingly boring right away yeah for sure you need to struggle so would you say then I'm gonna this is getting big

fast but would you say then death is necessary to make life more valuable yeah it's a big uh I mean

that's a you're extrapolating yeah but yeah that's exactly I think probably what a in the end boils down too like so like

death gives us Clarity at the finite amount of time and how to enjoy that

moment as much as we can because you didn't have that then it would just be like well today tomorrow what difference does it really make

right you know or it's like yeah there's something I'm a big believer in this in

general like uh hitting brick walls in life is not good but speed bumps are very good right

it's delayed gratification it means so I have to actually think about it struggle to do it I must really want it in that

process you're asking yourself a lot of questions like how valuable is this to me you're making an equation in your

mind am I willing to put in an x amount of minimum wage hours in order to purchase such a thing you know like it

actually you're weighing all these different um decisions all the time and then when you actually go through to it

like you know what it wasn't just the uh I got what I wanted in the end it was the whole process of deciding even if I

want this right and how much do I really want to put in to get such a thing that there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of

value in there that cannot be monetized and I think that's why you just don't hear about it much it's just we're

really becoming a slave to convenience we've talked about before but convenience I think is going to be like another deadly sin

I mean because if you take what you were saying um a little further and and it's kind of like you know you just sort of

see the trajectory of things like getting toward Universal basic income which you know for all the in like I I

don't even mind that as an idea but that once again takes another sort of

struggle away from people where they can you know you know but you don't want them to hit a brick wall yes it's all about getting the right

amount of pressure like you're going to the gym you don't want to lift so much weight you collapse but you don't want to lift something that's so light that

you're not getting any benefit yeah you got to find that sweet spot that balance there's a universal truth in that that

can be applied to a bunch of things which is like you mentioned the physical or like you're just the social or like

there always has to be something that you kind of overcome like that's life is about the struggle like that it's it's literally evolution is constantly

struggling for its own the hero's journey it's the journey itself you know you have to travel to the underworld and

have your Revelation right it's woven into our mythology is like it's um and now we're just like no you don't you

know Hercules doesn't have to redeem himself for killing his wife and child he's okay yeah yeah and there's

and no lessons learned exactly and I think that's I think and just I'll just just sort of wrap this up like I I think

that this is um this is what we're seeing now today I I've talked to a lot of um I have a few friends who are sort of

I would say late Millennials or whatever sort of in their early 30s and it's like uh they all you know no great people and

everything everybody's a product of their times but there's almost almost a sense of on Wii U like it's just they're they're

it's like not depression but it's like you know you try to eat it yeah like you

see you see them almost missing excitement like there's no excitement in their lives or something like it's not

that their lives are necessarily boring it's just that there's no like like they're maybe doing the same things but

they don't have that struggle to obtain it so they're not um like what do they care if uh you know it's like being it's

like being like a princess or something or if you have everything handed to you then you're like okay great like you just sort of in the stories the

princesses are usually quite bored yeah waiting for some Prince Charming to come into their life right everything is

taken care of for them yeah yeah yeah yeah but would you say then like I know you're into music like myself what about

concerts there's the ticket prices have gone through the roof are people just dying actually they don't know they are

but they're dying for that communal event I think they are you know I think they're not only for this is that the

modern version of going downtown and getting the CD with your father like you know I just want to stand with 25 thousand people in Scream how about one

common love we all have together yeah that's what you I think that's why

you see things like for example um you know this obsession with identity and trying to figure out and like you

know almost delineate what exact single type of person you are that distinguishes you from the rest and you

know why things like nfts or ordinals become popular it's like people want to possess something or they want to be

they want to be able to it's almost like reassure themselves that they're an

individual with um and there's something that distinguishes them from everybody else

and I don't know like I think you know getting going back to like CDs and sort of CD collections it was sort of music

that almost defined I mean let's say defined you know our personalities when

they were younger but they kind of did mold us into the same stuff in the you

know Wasteland of Suburbia they certainly were like the cultural flash point to which you could see a much

larger world pre-internet yeah what do their shoes look like what are their accents what kind of haircuts do they

have why are they making sense like that why is the music video look like this you know would you say though that this

is why vinyl records have made a comeback I think so yeah people want to touch and feel and be part of something and even just the analog business of

that it's it's something analog is different than digital it's the fact that it's fragile

subconsciously you almost feel like you're aligned with it because then your own life is fragile you know and you

should have this shared uh finite time on this Earth this CD or record my own

100 years on this Earth you know like as things get more digital and as we become transhumanisms uh into

the transhumanism Matrix let's say are is this sort of like a backlash like kind of like man I need to touch and

feel something and know that it actually it has a finite amount of time on Earth as I do yeah I want to be part of stuff

that actually will decompose you know it's part of The Human Condition it's part of um you know you

can't you can't just beat all that um you know thousands of years of evolution out of out of people right

like uh um long-form podcasts it's really the

version of uh which have you know the new phenomenon or who would have known like everyone's into their news clips

and their little feeds but there's a huge audience out there that wants to sit down around the campfire for three hours and hear a conversation yeah it

really is tribal it is yeah and it's funny because sometimes I you know you see them like Lex Friedman is sort of

the worst for this where it's like you know you look at this thing it's like four and a half or five hours you're like man like that is a whole day like

my days are just gonna be listening to you who has time for all these podcasts it's true but I mean but at the same thing like I think of like a Joe Rogan

and it's like you really so you can spend three hours really absorbed in that conversation and really it's it's comforting like there's a comfort you

get from that that you don't necessarily get from a um uh quick news bite or yeah

it's it's intellectual curiosity and as much I think it's also therapy yeah you know it's like I I want and you know

it's like you can turn it off so if it triggers you or goes in the wrong direction you have the power you know so

you can you feel like I think a lot of people feel in a safe way like where else can you

have a three-hour conversation where you can just snap out of it yeah you know like it's fantastic it kind of does both

it gets you into the digital world and into the three-hour conversation tactile well it is I mean it's not really a

conversation but it is uh no but you simulates that you almost when you have the one and you know you watch a lot of

the summaries you you feel like you could be one of the other people at the table yeah you're like just the rhythm you're just The Quiet One the mindset

you know like the way they crack jokes between the seriousness like okay I'm totally in this groove you know that's

what I like about Rogan it's not too and I find it's it's very conversational like you're getting you're talking as if

you're you're finding things out at the same level you would find it out if you were talking to the person yourself yeah

and he does a good job of I think of modulating meaning like when he's got someone really techy on he'll give them

their space and let them talk but then he'll also boil it down but boil it down but he also kind of reverts to like a

little bit silly to make sure that the audience doesn't get like this doesn't have to get too heady here with Eric Weinstein yeah you know and string

theory like at a certain point what a great that I don't know if you're yeah yeah but he was doing like also he would

give him but he would just like get really silly as someone said once to me like Joe Rogan's like everybody's big brother who smokes dope in the garage

you know like but who knows like you know aliens you know the pyramids but

but he actually knows a lot of stuff and he's a good that's where he's emotionally intelligent because he's very aware of like okay this is going a

little too far I gotta pull it back a bit for sure and so the gift from you get a broad spectrum of viewers yeah

like how can you get like the guy who likes to smoke dope in a garage also sitting down listening to somebody talk about String Theory yeah when has that

happen before yeah yeah and there are conversations like you would want to be a part of kind

of thing because they're you know they're not just silly and they're not just and they're not overly um heady they're they're sort of right

in this week short of being in a university classroom you're just not going to get that type of lecture anywhere you're not going to hear that

on the news you're not going to pick up Time Magazine and read about that in any kind of deep meaningful way

so yeah what were you going to say then about this being the Digital Life yeah

um and I I hope I'm making this point um you know there's something here I don't know if I'm quite encapsulating it

but it's it's this idea um I feel like so you know Nietzsche said

in peace time a warlike man sets upon himself and I feel like now it's like are we all we're like men are we all

um we have no battle to fight and so we're occupying

our thoughts you know it's 100 this is the peak of system of civilization and we're tearing ourselves apart yes it's a

very analogy we've gone through before right hunting for all like the small little things Applause ourselves it's like we need that certain amount of

tension in our world yeah even if it's self-inflicted do you know like I was listening to once like um the op there's

an optimal amount of um like uh positive interactions the negative interactions

in a marriage so if you have like a I think it's around like five to one so

every five interactions that were in a positive towards your spouse if one is negative that's pretty good if you start going towards four or three positive

interactions to one negative you're headed to the road of divorce but conversely if you do 11 positive

interactions to one negative you're also headed towards divorce God that doesn't make any sense yeah well welcome to

Being Human so there's an optimal amount of tension that we need in our life even

with your spouse right it can't simply come on if it's like uh Coming to America you know what are your favorite

movies whatever yours are my sire like a certain point you're like what are your favorite fruits whatever is stand on the

foot and bark like a dog like it gets boring really fast you do want a little bit of tension in your life yeah but not

so much again it's not a brick wall it's more of a speed bump but not so much that it um impedes you know your own growth and

enjoyment in the relationship yeah yeah it's um and I I feel as a society

more and more that ratio is getting extended um I mean it's very dynamic because

you'll have times where you know for example government censorship like you know that maybe we would rally against

but it's so that doesn't feel very um uh that doesn't feel like the ratio

is extending in the sense that we're you know everything is everyone's getting along but I think overall things are

becoming more convenient we're having more you know things are just easier it's easier to make money it's easier

you don't necessarily need you know I mean in the old days uh like just thinking anything

pre-1900s even or pre-World War II it was like it was a real struggle like a lot of people were starving uh you know

it was uh you had to maybe work like you know 14 hours a day or whatever and I

mean I realize that some of that happens still in places and over the world but it's um like just overall increasingly things

are more easy more convenient um we might have hit Peak Society maybe maybe at that point where it's

like literally you're getting butternut squash rigatones delivered to your house

at 11 o'clock at night yeah you know like what the hell are you shrugging your shoulders and you know it's like you're getting like it's like I Think

Like These Old Kings of Babylon or whatever and they're you know they have everything they have grapes being fed to them and it's like all these exotic

cheeses or whatever they brought in and um but you're bored and you're like well like I want a war or something like

there needs to be some sort of struggle to uh to almost Define you well again it brings you back you said this I've had

quite elegant eloquently one time where uh this idea that when you're speaking

to you know you imagine your soul before you were born and what would that Soul want why would they want to be born why

would they want to be a human being and it was like it wouldn't be because they wanted to just recline on a beach for you know 80 to 100 years or whatever

what's the purpose yeah exactly like um you you want I don't know to struggle to

like achieve um and I think this is not to kind of

like I think this is part of the problem with you you know a lot of the pro a lot of the stuff with like everybody you know even even the anti-bullying

campaigns like there's something about like the struggle you know I'm not saying like bullying is good or anything

but it's like um there's something about that struggle to you know through High School kind of

finding yourself finding where you sort of fit in and like um and overcoming adversity you know like it molds you

into something stronger again speed bumps not brick walls right you know like so like a teasing is fine you know

and then you get into a few fist fights here or there but but bullying bullying no yeah yeah that's too far yeah right

but I mean it but learning how to handle because that's the first that's the first real adversity you're going to find in life well yeah so if you can

conquer that early in life then congrats you're going to have a much easier life there's a there's a point where it's

like you have to sort of stand up for yourself and that that defines you I mean how many kids these days don't have

uh anything uh like you know everything is very easy and if they if they find

anything that's slightly uncomfortable about how somebody's talked to them or whatever they they can complain and it's like it's addressed immediately like how

are they going to you know when they face real adversity in the world like how do they then handle that right like

it's like team sports are so important you know I know they don't do you're having a winner and a loser you know 100

yeah but in and then you know there's up to the parents or the coaches to know that in the context of what we were

playing which is just for fun but there is a winner and loser in that context yeah it's not the life yeah it doesn't

Define you as a loser forever but yeah it's uh 100 man oh I was on a lot of

fist fights from uh grade five through grade eight like a lot oh I had transferred schools or then there was

another pack of kids that were thought they were like the alpha males and they kind of sets me out like I was the other alpha male next you know I'm I'm wearing

my winter gloves right in the springs like well I'm gonna get into a fight today so these are like my boxing mids you know like I had to prep myself and

be really brass knuckles no I didn't go that far you see I'm not a psychopath but I had a little bit of preparation

you know like well you think you're not gonna get into a fight today you know so yeah I just wear them into the spring

yeah you know but I I you know but I'm really proud of myself during those years it was always

there was never one against one it was like three against one you know oh really yeah yeah four three four side of

you yeah yeah oh crazy um but but you know like it's it's makes

you more gentle too because you know what it feels like to be on the other side yeah you know and just to learn empathy right I just thought those were

just like like kids who had like honestly like mental issues when you hate to say it like that but like you

just say what kind of family do they come from I think that's what you think when you're like for 13 years old or 10 you know well that's what that's what

you think yeah yeah I know and as a 10 year old you're like what kind of like a nice person wouldn't do this so they

either they're not nice or they weren't raised nicely right so even when you were pounding on them like you kind of

pulled back a bit because you because because you knew because you knew like this can't there's

only so far this is supposed to go right so that's where you're learning like it's almost like when your dog you have a baby dog and it's like it's learning how much it needs to bite on your finger

before it actually hurts you right like there's obviously there's a sweet spot yeah right yeah

but yeah I don't know if the kids today have that resilience or even um if that resilience is even valued if

they're even talked about you know in endurance yeah you know we used to talk a lot about um character when I was

really young and that got changed around my teenage years to self-esteem right you know I think that's a really

pivotal change yeah you mean as as opposed to character or

yeah like one replace the other like it's not because character means you took your hits on life and made you the person you are all that kind of stuff

self-esteem is basically like I feel good about myself right

which is supposed to be as a result of building good character but they kind of just skip to the end point I see I see what you're saying yeah you know like

like you said like they took the struggle out of it a bit um so I I guess this is this is where

I'm you know sort of going with this is just this idea that now we live in a world where

um you know I I see chat gbt coming out and I see deep fakes coming out and I

started thinking like is everything just going to be like what is more and more I feel like

we're just kind of losing our the point of being human or reality yeah yeah so

you know like is it in 1984 where they could just go in and like so you could argue you know having digitization of

things is wonderful because it's a decentralization and now you can do like a Freedom of Information and all of a sudden you post it online 100 000 people

read it this is amazing we couldn't do this prior to the internet okay on the flip side though it's also dangerously

centralizing things because you could go look for a newspaper article like in 1984 uh and then like people can just

click and change the headlines from like past newspaper articles and you would never know the difference you just delete history so I wonder sometimes are

things like World War II if it were to happen again like like are people or even now like are

people gonna look at it 50 years from now or less and go well how do I know that footage wasn't faked yeah how do I

know that war really happened because it's gonna be like show me the physical remains of what happened you

only have like digital stuff well that can be faked so I just don't believe in it yeah and or or something like uh uh

religion let's say and if you were to take the Bible as like a history book but at least there's a physical document that has existed through 2000 years yeah

it's been Rewritten and badly Rewritten many times and politics and everything else but at least there's a physical

book but if that wasn't a digital realm you wouldn't have multiple variations of it like or centralized digital realm

like this is the non-misinformation version that you should all read right right this is why

I a buy books as opposed to um digital anything

um and B when I come across really good YouTube videos or something that I think

oh like this is information that is you save it yeah um we have this great framed poster in

my place that says uh it's from the Chicago Sun Times in 1945 and it's Hitler is dead as the main headline it

says great old newspaper but it's like it's it's an artifact of the past and it's like I find that's that stuff so

fascinating and it's it's tactile and you can look at it and you see the other little stories around it and everything

you're like wow this is a moment of time what about an incredible moment of time but like um yeah I think we move away from that

like physical newspapers we don't really have much anymore and it's like you know I and I you can make an argument toward of course it's better for the

environment you don't have to have this like like Inky paper around and everything like that but it's like

you're missing something tactile that um I don't think we can reclaim in any other and I would say more temper like

more temper proof yeah like the digital realm will like forget it like it can be completely tampered people are gonna have we're gonna become just as

disassociated from the last 2 000 years of History as uh the same reason why we don't know

where we came from now yeah like where did that history go right and because the Library of Alexandria got burned down and all the

texts were taken away imagine that it was a hard drive and you got clicked yeah you know what I mean boom yeah or

something like yes it's done right so I think I feel like we're almost setting ourselves up for like another um almost

like cultural amnesia right yeah yeah well and you can also see with the emergence of deep fakes I

mean even now you can watch these videos and I'm sure you've seen the one where you know Biden

is talking about like something or where you're being like like there's no way he would say that and it's like of course

but that's uh um but they're so realistic and this is just the early stages uh that like who's

to stop somebody just swapping out news articles like news travel so fast it's like all you have to do is have a

convincing fake and it's like you could start World War Three and well I think Elon Musk was saying that like uh one of

the scary things with AI is that imagine in the political realm where um because of your clicks online and

your your sort of Internet digital ID profile an actor a foreign actor a

corporate actor could tailor a message specifically to you so we're going to

generate through AI the perfect first of all actor like a person how they look how to what you would identify with so

you know white Christian man age 50 this is what he would want to see then they

can tailor and keep refining the actual message saying well Jason didn't interact that time let's try another one let's try

another one let's try another one right and literally you can get then oh Jason like yes I just totally agree with that point of view you can then shape

democracy right because you know like remember back like when Kennedy versus Nixon and it was the first televised debate and

they said well he won because he was more photogenic and more charismatic on stage and that kind of thing rather than

he was he actually going to be a better president right we're in that was sort of the beginning of this where it became much more superficial and therefore we

became much more malleable right and I feel like if you can do that on an individual level because they had to

pick one guy Kennedy that looked good for the average American yeah right now we just have to make it good for you

yeah it can be very they can get really granular with it so when people say well they can follow my leads online I don't

care I have nothing to hide yeah they don't care about you specifically but when they can see the you times 37

million people in Canada they can get their pulse of the nation yeah you know and then that's where you can really start changing politics so imagine that

then with like personalized tailored messages through digital Loop AI yeah you like we might not have a democracy

25 30 years from this you're gonna have a tyranny and we're all gonna love it yeah or so you want to have you want to

put out a message that like you know the war in Ukraine you know for example like Russia was justified in invading Ukraine

for example uh you could tailor you could have a message that is tailored almost customized per individual all

selling that same story The all overall and but in different ways that is more you know yeah

um would be an individual might be more successful like communism would have their campaigns towards the housewife and then it's words of the worker yeah

well imagine that's like so that was ages and genders imagine right down to the atomic level like each individual

person you know yeah it's a it's deadly and we are psychological beings and so we're gonna

feel it yeah yeah there's a reason why Jesus has blonde hair and blue eyes in England and looks more

you know Arabic let's say or Armenian in the Middle East you know um

yeah I think you get um you can sort of see that um you can sort of see that taking place

that's kind of customizable and you see it in you know it's been around you know advertisers tweaking things and for

certain demographics and this and that but yeah you're right like it's getting very Atomic in its application now and I

don't know really what we do about it I mean you know um so I think we have to

employ all kinds of scientists you know what not just digital techie

sorry I think there's really you can categorize people into two categories broadly speaking those who are

interested in things and those who are interested in people right and and the engineering mindset types are interested

in things oh I want to Tinker around this is so fun it's clear it's logical it's rational right and that's the kind

of person that likes to build these sorts of programs then you have the other kind of people the psychologists the the mother or a father if they were

to take that on a child care worker an author a musician they're more interested in like becoming more

interested in people and I think you need to have both aspects rounding this out you can't simply leave it in the

hands of the people who are interested in tinkering around with things well it's just we've been so I feel like

a broken record but like and I know this has been you know said in many places but it's like we're so interested in

whether we can do it then we're not worrying about whether we should do it and there's so many things like

like uh you think about the Manhattan Project and how like people knew about that and kept it secret right like like

journalists knew about it and they didn't report on it you know what I mean because there was a common goal to sort of beat the Nazis but like can you

imagine that happening today like I can't imagine anybody like kind of Keeping a Secret like that like in the

sort of in the common good and like um how is there um they're like everybody's

sort of I don't know it's it's almost like in in dissolving the individual

you're also dissolving the community like there's no con it's just like people fighting over scraps well I think

you could still get people to believe in a narrative that they know is no longer true like do people still believe the

vaccines ended the pandemic but no one wants like it's become psychological you find people they've all stopped getting

the shots but they really won't say anything negative about it right like it's they don't I don't think it's it's a much more subtle form of um

psychological manipulation yeah you know you're asking them why and they they just don't really have an answer so I

think I think in that realm I think things have advanced a bit where it's like it's not really like a conspiracy

and we're it's more like a communal set of ideas that we all adhere to and

therefore you just won't and then XYZ whatever the variable is speak up you know be a whistleblower or whatever

I don't know I mean I still hear people talking about um like I think you know Sam Harris for

example will still go on about the efficacy of the vaccines and stuff like that and it's like he's a smart guy like I listen to him like a lot so either

he's exceedingly dumb or exceedingly ideological I don't know I think it's like this yeah

I saw him the other day on a podcast too he's like well he just it was the moral right thing to do because it stopped her what did you just say you know like in

this you're right he's not a he's not a dummy but he has and he has a good point or is he dumb because he's just he's out of his realm and he's just eloquent and

he knows a little bit about you know when he talks in religion and everything else he just kind of applies his very no very nice way of talking but he's

actually not particularly schooled in any of these things there there's it's steeped in a a deep like it's very

formulaic the way he sort of thinks or at least the way he represents it or something true so like you have uh like

he has a i listening to him the other day he was talking about how it's important to have trust in institutions

and this idea of doing your own research basically is a um you know a dubious way of going about

things and and you know but he's you know he qualifies he's not saying like but it's very some research but you

don't you know if you have if you find out you have cancer you don't start thinking you're an oncologist and reading all these PubMed articles so

it's like um I think I think and I think there's some truth to that like I think but that's an easy low-hanging fruit yeah that's an easy attack to win the

argument my thing with the vaccines was always the censorship it's like look I don't care you might be right I don't

know like if you're the doctors or whatever but it's like why are you blocking these other people from speaking and don't tell me it's

misinformation because they're causing the thing that Sam Harris is saying they're giving doubt to the institutions

and therefore people are going off and doing their own research so yeah it's like having Heretics in a

little Christian Town well we just can't handle them because it's going to get people stop coming to church they are

the Heretics you know it's it's why I think it's a very low-hanging argument fruit I don't think that's a very strong

it's it was probably the easiest straw man he could attack that such a such an argument on well I think that as opposed

to actually engaging the data that the people are actually reading here yeah I I well I think that yeah I mean I

I disagree for me it's all about the censorship and um but it's excuse me there's uh like it's

it's interesting because you know I think we you were just saying about how you know the vaccines like who really

even believes that anymore whatever but I'm saying I don't think he believes it I think he's totally doing exactly what

I said I think he's just formulating an argument so he doesn't have to deal with this uh demon in his mind

it's like this was even if it was even if those people were proven right it was far too risky of a Gamble and therefore

I'm gonna just gamble in this this way because maybe they're right this time but they will be probably wrong in the

next nine out of ten times and that's not good for society I think he's gonna be shocked into that sort of algorithm like that in his mind so therefore it's

the mechanism of thought that matters not whether they were right this time around well or and you would know this

uh better than I would because you sort of talk to more people on a daily basis but like um are you sure that it isn't just that

you're sort of in a bit of a silo in terms of where you're getting your information from that so many people are you have to be aware of this for sure no

the average person well I don't proof isn't a puddin the uh was it like 80 of people in Canada or more than 160 180

days out of having their last booster so the average person has stopped going when are you supposed to like how often are you supposed to be getting you can

get it every 90 days really yes so so there's no it's not like there's like a fourth booster and like I thought we

were no now we're in this phase now every 90 days if you wish to get it you may oh man that's crazy what is it

now that's what they've said you know so so I'm just saying that the people have

stopped going yes and people's masks are mostly off that sort of thing so you can just see their behavior but if you were

to quiz them they would still say well it was great because it got us to this happy place and if you were to break it apart they don't have an argument so

then it just all falls apart yeah so I think they've just kind of done that sort of like a informal non-disclosure agreement they all just kind of agreed

it didn't work but we're going to go on with it you know um we did what we could that's what they're going to kind of

memory hole a lot of this stuff not to belabor this because it bothers me when the when the you know you're talking to

somebody and they kind of switch what you're talking about like the problems I have with the vaccine isn't that I think necessarily the vaccines don't work I

mean they don't like in terms of like protecting you against the virus but like about protecting you against infections

certainly which eliminates all the reason for Community like mandatory reasons right but so what I'm saying is

the vaccines probably did protect you in the sense that you weren't getting as sick so I I I'll I can I can actually

part of that yeah I can accept that but even if that's the case but the problem I had was the censorship number one sure

and number two this idea that like you're talking about something that is for the vast majority of the population not that deadly or anything so you're

really weighing after the slogan in 2021 we're not you're not safe no we're not

safe until we're all wait what was the slogan uh nobody's safe until we're all safe

right talk about chunking everything together and like that's so anti-scientific for sure yeah for sure

that's coercion 101. but and that that's the kind of that's the problem I have so you you you're talking about a uh

fundamental uh problem with how we're dealing with it not not specifically

about the vaccines or their efficacy rates or whatever yeah I mean you know certainly a mechanism of censorship and

a bodily autonomy and yeah like that's the problem yeah yeah and then and that to your credit I mean that's the larger

picture because this was just one thing today but tomorrow will be something else and then they say something else and it's like what kind of society have

we formed here and so I'm sure obviously you uh know about the um the commission

investigating whether it was uh the Freedom of Information Act whether they had the right to

um uh seize govern um like seize bank accounts when they were

doing that and it's like yes we do have the right we have investigated ourselves and formally come to the conclusion that

we were right like what a joke man that's uh so yeah and not to make this

it's not a covet episode but it's like the underlying mechanisms like when you have commissions that were um poor guy

that lived I don't know if you're watching the emergencies that commission and it came down like one guy like a judge commissioner and even his final

statement was reasonable people of reasonable intellect can look at this data and come to the completely opposite point of view right so and you left that

in one hand and you couldn't have like a you go to a I don't know a school trustee meeting these days and there's 75 people in the room it's like freezing

bank accounts you leave it in one person to decide whether it was right or wrong yeah and I don't begrudge The Man He's

liberal that's his he can be whatever party he wants but at least you could have three or five different professionals there coming to an average

answer so that so much for the Democracy of that yeah so yeah when you pull this back to Ai and like deep Faith like it's

all part of the same package like it's like the individual versus collectivism them like you know you got little things

like little cultural quirks like um you know it's kind of just maybe it's just slipping into our world but you

know you say about digital IDs but then also like you know it's called the iPhone it doesn't get any more individual than putting the word i in it

right you know the iPad right uh you know it's kind of like the blending of humans and machines

and yeah just like that sort of you know like I was saying blending of humans and machines or blending of everything like

you know we have a we had two genders now we have it seems to be almost an unlimited number of genders and at some

point then it's like well we've got so many genders what is gender it's like ultimate where I told you once like diversity in its ultimate form just

becomes decomposition like you actually don't have anything left of a core anything in a sense right so you know

taking that back a little bit to the way you know the way the straw Manning certain things like people like Sam

Harris I think they just have one or two different ways of formulating their thoughts and in certain Realms they're

very researched on and other ones they just kind of go of consensus you know like

when he was saying um how did you say it like he was saying uh the dangers of you just going off and

reading your own uh research studies well first of all those research studies are done by researchers you know they

are professionals it wasn't like I just want to ask the Oracle Adelphi what shall I do you know but I think there's

a point I think it's it's more like I mean I think that the the research you're

doing for example is much more rigorous than the research that sort of your average guy who's like don't get it off

tick tock right there is a good way to do research online and it's not in a

short easy convenient form it's arduous and you have to take it seriously and you have to like know

where you're going for it but to Simply sit there and say you know like I remember one time he was saying regarding climate change like well you

know 97 of scientists agree so are you going to side of the 97 or the three

well can we actually look at that 97 to break it down and is it is that a real number and how do we get to that number

like let's do some science here now you're just taking it like well then the high priest says you know we must uh the world was created in seven days so who

am I to argue I'm just a poor farmer but his point isn't that it's uh uh that

it's a high priest it's the the high priests plural of the land seems like

that it seems like that but I've seen really good detailed analysis of such things and again it's not a climate you

know so it's just like the way of thinking but uh but that consensus is not really there

and now now that's a mirage we're getting to like The Wizard of Oz a little bit if that consensus is not there first you got to ask yourself why

did they fake the consensus and where is the real consensus on this but I think this is where it gets into

it and um and I'm not you know um like for how deep down the rabbit hole

do you go because you talk about they right that's thrown around a lot so who is the they who is the Cobble going back to what I was saying too I don't think

it's a set it's I don't conspiracies like you look at something like the world economic Forum you could cut off

the head of the Hydra it doesn't really matter because it's a set of ideas and it's like that ethos that set of

ideas that keeps going so then people like I said it's almost like we now have a sort of um subconscious non-disclosure

agreement to really question what the government did the last two years because it was so traumatic it's like

well have you ever heard of that um psychological experiment before where uh very briefly um two groups randomized uh

pumping water into a well one group did it for free one group got paid 25 cents an hour and at the end of the experiment

um they asked each group uh how valuable of experience was that to you so one

group got paid for doing it one group did not get paid so which group do you think said it was more valuable of an

experience by virtue of the fact that you're bringing this up I can guess the people who didn't get paid but however most of the time you'd say those who got

something out of it right the 25 cents they actually reported less satisfaction because they figured well 25 cents isn't

very much yeah so I did all this for 25 cents an hour my God it wasn't worth it but the person who did it for free said

well I didn't get paid anything and this must have some residual value therefore yeah I will rate it as a very good

experi experience overall that is in a nutshell the psychology that goes around like the last two years and whether you

want to call it a conspiracy covid Waf mandates like people will just chunk it

as well we did it and I'm still alive it must have had some residual good and I'm just gonna let it go

as opposed to tearing it apart because the tearing apart is very difficult psychologically like to admit you've

been lied to or fooled or you're part of something do you think imagine what it was like for like the for trying to like

bring back those um people that were on the side of Hitler in World War II who weren't

totally into it but weren't dead against it they kind of just went along to get along they are the 97 fake fake

consensus that went along with it were they really into it were they just kind of silent because they didn't want to

face any sort of a retribution I mean you know it's actually really interesting always bringing it back to

World War II and bring it back to like because there was a country called Germany and there were like the population more or less went along with

what was happening and it whether they just didn't say anything or whatever the case most of them weren't you know in the streets revolting so like nice

people went around went sorry to cut you off they went very highly educated you almost have to Beijing to fall for such

a thing this is part of the the way it works um a highly educated populace fell for

one of the most genius crimes and I hate bringing up uh you know analogies and

metaphors towards that because it's such a I don't want to call it I don't want to call it a one-off event but that

danger but the point the reason why I bring it up is because that lurking psychological weakness exists in every

human today yeah and so how to not have a repeat you know even in a softer form like coveted

mandates or digital tyranny or whatever like it's it's the psychological Like Us Versus Them consensus 97 versus three

like Sam Paris is trying to say I'm gonna go with the experts you think it wasn't the expert class that was telling

the people that they they had to do the final solution and the average farmer is going well you know you're the experts

uh Hitler and friends you know um you know and there was a bit of that yeah and so where were the people to stand up

and say you know what maybe I don't know everything but I know that this is wrong right right and we need to find a better

answer and I'm just going to say stop now until we find a better answer so that's where you are I think too like

you like I've encouraged people to get vaccines I'm not anti-vaccine and I'm talking about the new mRNA ones I'm not

anti-vaccine I'm simply like make your own decision yeah you know I think it's

interesting uh we really did see um during the coveted pandemic you you

saw that same flash of I don't know what you'd call it ignorance or just you know whatever the

word would be for brainwashed I I mean hurting yeah like but you saw that in their eyes like I would talk to people

and it's almost like this gloss over their eyes where it's like just for kind of squawking back everything they just

saw on TV and it's like how do you communicate it's like oh I you didn't get the memo that this is all like like

you you realize you're totally swallow the Kool-Aid I had a very visceral um

experience with that psychological mechanism with a very nice client the other day and she does Consulting work

for pharmaceutical companies so historically she would say things to me like well I was really great when I got

to meet them in there because uh one doctor I met who worked for one of the Pharmaceuticals said well you know why I didn't become a family physician because

there I could only help a couple hundred people but when I work with vaccines I can help Millions like it really becomes

like a religious ethos like I can help shape the planet yeah and so now the client is feeding giving like isn't it

amazing she gets to do this amazing work with this Pharmacy critical company so she's all in I would say whatever the

maximum amount of doses she can have she can have so by all in I'm saying she's all in mentally into this sort of world

okay and uh when I was um performing a service for her the other

day uh she turns to me because you know I woke up this morning and I was reading the Global Mail and I was so happy

because they said this is going to be the Global Mail had written this will be our last report on covid we're not

talking about it anymore it's over and I know what the subtext of that was was because I've pushed back against her

gently every time she's been in my business regarding this sort of stuff uh is that uh she's basically saying I know

I'm wrong and I don't want to talk about it anymore right yeah but she doesn't want to come out and say

that so she defers then to an external mechanism like well the globe and male Authority has said we don't need to

report about this anymore it's over like I isn't that amazing well it's amazing that the globe would put in like what

are they saying just just disclaimer it's like look this is over well maybe the number of the reports the cases

hospitalizations like basically it's just it's not worth the time to report and she was happy that we've reached

that point meaning the way I interpret it like we don't need you and I to talk about this anymore either it's over instead of saying well you know what

Dimitri I had my questions but on some of the points I think you were actually a little ahead of the curve and you know

congratulations and not that I'm asking for that it's for her sake to see that she was fooled yeah you know I don't

care I still make the same mistake next time exactly over a different thing yeah so now when it comes down to this has

been a very interesting experience an experiment over the last several years we have really torn away that thin

veneer of society and got down to each individual like who are are you and what are you really about and if a World War

II like scenario were to happen again what side are you falling on yeah are

you going to be that dissident that says no I'm not following the expert class that's a very hard thing to do yeah and

vast majority can't I would like to think this experience coax those who are still alive to realize they got fooled

and to not be Fooled Again I mean just to bring it back a little for the I think this will be it but did you know

like the expert class in the UK what they've said now about um vaccination there going forward

regarding uh covid yeah I see that twinkle in the eye you know it's coming uh under 50 years of

age unless you're immunocompromised you can no longer get a booster right right so if I were to say that

here I'd be a heretic yeah here meaning North America right but their expert class has said that's okay it's like we

have the Protestants versus the uh Baptists you know who's who's got the right gospel Now sort of thing yeah so

doing your own research should entail of course listening to verified qualified and up till that

moment in time very well respected individuals doesn't mean you just get to throw them out of the bus and pull like

a Twitter files and go well we're just gonna did you see what happened this week um yeah so I designed it to our

listeners I don't know if anyone knows that but in the UK you can't get a shot under 50 anymore and that just sounds like I tell clients that like really you

can see it's like like saying like you don't need Holy Communion when you go to church or something you know like no you're you will go to heaven without

communion you're gonna be okay and they have this look of absolute disbelief

and then the eyes glaze over and go back to the regular programming right it's literally psychological programming so

you can it's it's becomes like a subconscious non-disclosure act nobody seems to want to really know and that's

exactly where the governments and the pharmaceutical companies want to be because then there's going to be less uh public pressure to do any deep inquiries

yeah I think also just and I'm just going to briefly touch on this then we can kind of move on but like there it

also has to do with when you're I think I don't know if it's maybe an older generation or what it is but this idea

of people doing their own research uh almost Harkens back to like

people you know 20 years ago who are like kind of putting together newspaper clippings like maniacally all over their

in their apartment people go in you know that you know the police comes in to investigate something they're like oh my God this goes obviously insane but it's

like we have so much more access to information now there's so much stuff that we have those other expert class

articles from and there's a good way in a bad way to do anything you know yeah

so you know when they when the French would meet in some underground tavern to talk about late resistance against the

Germans you know like well how do you know the French government was going to do any better than the Germans anyways look what they've done they're the

expert class you're like really like like it took no it knows where by today's standards relatively uneducated

people but they decided right which is funny bringing back to covet you could you could argue my position on this was

actually more risky you know like the the safest the road through this would have been to get two shots you know

overall I'm saying like psychologically you get two shots you wear your mask the second they tell you take out of your

mask take off your mask done you didn't you didn't under commit you didn't over commit right you know my position was a

little riskier I got perhaps lucky you know on this round maybe into Sam Harris's point I won't get so lucky on

my decision-making tree next time around but certainly to be on the other side and say well shots for life and uh keep

masking because it's a virtuous thing to do also isn't right right yeah and it's about getting that balance just right well and it's also

important to make sure that you inject your own I mean people are different like people know their own maybe they

don't know their own immune system intimately but they know what their generally you know generally whether you're healthy or you're not what you're

comfortable what your risk tolerance is so like you know people make different decisions this wasn't the black plague you know it was like you know something

where you could look at the stats it was very clear what the death toll or the you know um mortality rate and everything was so

it's like you make a decision based on your age cohort and it's like okay well do you know who let us down the most

well [Laughter] yeah

wow yeah no um yeah that's a whole series of podcasts and in a

psychological Dark Realm um no your family physician right they are your closest Expert

but and how much did they say I I was at my family physician today doing blood work and I said to her at a certain

point her nicest lady in the world at a certain point her mask was do we have to wear a mask to go in I'm like okay no

problem not a jerk I follow you know fine um I I I'm like said to her at a certain

point because her mask was like underneath her nose as I'm in the office with her and I'm like have you seen the Cochrane

review on this stuff yet and she's like no I'm like well do you know the Cochrane Institute is and for our

listeners it's one of the most elite prestigious you know reviewing mechanisms in America for medical stuff and she's like oh I know what Cochrane

is I'm like okay so you haven't seen the review yet though no I'm like well don't shoot me I'm just a patient here but

what they say is that in their meta-analysis of all the randomized control trials on masking I think there

was 78 of them all together they dropped out the observational trials because there's too much bias Pro or minus in

masking all masks have no Community benefit none zero you can say you know sneezing

into your arm as a community has an individual benefit turning your back but to say you do that every single time over the next 12 months let's stop the

rate of spread no so something to that effect my point is she's an educated person

she's my closest uh expert at arm's length that I can actually get in touch with and she had not even heard of the

review never mind have her two cents well Dimitri I have read it however I think for those who are like something

just give me something she didn't even know yeah so then if the expert class that is closest to you don't know the

most pertinent reviews that are out there where's the individual supposed to go yeah that's a good point I think what

the this pandemic has taught us one of the sort of takeaways from it is that the the family doctor is just a person

and and really shouldn't be revered as more than the fact that you know there

they know more than you generally speaking about um basic um physiology and uh but in the

time of a pandemic over something that was mandated I would say that they would have that takes priority and it's

something that should hit the radar I'm very sympathetic they're tired they're hard working the young doctors have a lot of debt when they go to school like

totally get it but this was the middle of a pandemic I'm not asking whether vitamin B1 will lower my blood sugar

right you know and whether she wants to get into that or not you know or nutrition in general like it would be

nice if they knew about that stuff but okay fine it's not their realm they're a portal to Big Pharma and to your

Specialists who may know more about these things but it's just disappointing because you know the mother will walk into the Pediatric and like hope to hear

something and they get like they put put a mask on your two-year-old right which was improving through

science through experts don't do it countries that mass versus countries that didn't mask have the exact same

rate of uh covet spread you know but you know there's quite something so where do you put the Trust In expert class after

that yeah uh I I agree with you although I will say something like Mass it's not

that like it's almost airing on the side of caution right it's like maybe it works maybe it doesn't work but what's the

harm in having people the harm would be psychological and coercion into obedience to then I'm sure you can make

an argument countries that masked had more higher rates of booster uptake than countries that didn't mask and I think

the two are related yeah well but because you have fear on a daily basis you're more likely to go get

that next shot well the government now you're being coerced yeah you know you're using this but what seems to be

benign and like low-hanging fruit mechanism which can help save another person's life it's really just being

mostly used to coerce you into getting another shot right at a government level but the on

the individual business level if uh you know if a doctor is like wants people Mass going into their office or whatever

then I I mean I get that in the sense of like if you haven't done all the research and you're not up to on the latest studies it's like but it has to

have efficacy if there's no efficacy and so I wouldn't I would never if someone asked me to put one on I put one on if

someone asks me I'll just decide whether to why don't go back to that place or not but I wouldn't go get in their face

and be like how dare you I just vote with my daughters and move in a different direction that's all but okay that being said and

because you're uh more up to date on this than I am right are the n95 masks not effective not effective on a

community level full stop so what is what does that mean like if I wear one am I not more protected if you wear one you are more protected on an individual

level so that's why I would never make fun of someone and not really discourage them on an individual level to wear it but to say there's enough Community

reduction in spread by wearing such masks because they don't wear them correctly they don't change

them every three hours there's all these human factors you can put children in hazmat suits but you're not going to be

zipping them up properly like so there's there's that so there's the again it kind of goes back to like the engineering mindset versus the

psychological mindset and being interested in people if you look at it from an engineering problem does it

filter x amount of particles per hour and therefore stops yeah perhaps it does sure you can mimic that will people

actually use it in that way so again it's the same same way of thinking that brings us back to Ai and stuff like we

have this world of AI well they just become like allow us to um achieve our darkest secrets

like where are humans going to go with with something like this when we are allowed to um because I see I see a

parallel Center that's why I like don't mind segueing into this sort of stuff because going back to AI

um now that you you can someone say what's the problem of XYZ I get to have more pleasure more often sort of thing

you know what's what's the harm in such a benign act well you know what there is harm in that

what do you think yeah well we've talked about this before because it's easy to play The Devil's

Advocate for that narrative like it's easy for me to say I think we talked about it in the context of the metaverse

and it's like if you could be strapped up to a machine and all you're getting is pleasure all the time you can do all

the things in the world that you would want to jump off buildings and this and that and never have that same risk

and that reality is just as real to you as any other reality what is the harm

you know like that that would be a reasonable argument to make I think like I think I've heard this way like this what are we putting our attention on if

you're putting your attention on the mask you know I think it's misplaced attention you know if you're putting

your attention on you know um like what is the higher goal if you're putting your attention on through digital um uh

Ai and algorithms have now become your new best friend and you don't have to go through the hardships about what a real friendship is all about uh it just

becomes like self-serving pleasure but maybe you're going through those hardships in the context of the

alternate reality so you're actually engaging for example you have to still climb that mountain in in the um in the

reality and your brain believes that it's real although you can face the same risk of falling off yeah like like I was

saying before like marriage you have to have the optimal amount of uh yeah positive interactions and negative but if it's simply all just positive you're

gonna hate it right like they'll have rainy days in the metaverse you know what I mean but if you have the ability

to skip that song you will if you have the ability to like screw off AI I want you on the nice side today what do you

think the average person can do they're gonna do the bring it back to Gary Newman they're gonna do the Pleasure Principle maybe they have to build in

struggle into the system that you can't actually forward but then is it really like well this is mine and I just want

to do what I want with it yeah then they're just replicating life which we already have that yeah yeah and which is

really is replicating like it's increasing power so they got self-serving pleasure that

it is skewed towards increasing your power over things I don't think that is a healthy

psychological place for us to be I think it's actually anti-human well so let me this is like how I think this is how the

image of the Beast actually manifests itself if there's like the banality of evil this is exactly where it kind of comes out of yeah I think um well here's

something that I like I'm going to digress a little bit what do you think of this idea

um you ever I so I have this sort of principle or whatever called the god principle it's like I do believe in God

and I think that when I look at the world and I feel like you know everything in my own life and everything in sort of the rest of the world there

always seems to be like this last minute sort of Saving Grace or whatever where it's like you know the Cuban Missile

Crisis like oh well it was surprised they you know averted disaster like and I know that's a dangerous way of

thinking in terms of policy and stuff like that but just hypothetically I see this stuff play out and I'm like oh like thank God like that got resolved or

whatever and I wonder if it's like we're not in some sort of uh game like that

and that that has been built in so it's like it's like basically don't worry you still got the struggle you can push it

to the Limit push to the Limit but at the end of the day you're still gonna get saved you just won't know that that's always going to happen I don't

know if we I was thinking this strongly or we've done this in a previous podcast but I've got this Theory that's what

Omicron was right yeah exactly yeah you know like if why are we here because of masks no are

we here because of vaccines stopping the spread no we're here because Omicron is not sufficiently not dangerous enough to Warrant such things and bringing it back

to like that sort of stuff like the tech that was used during covid was the closest we've ever been to like

institutionalized authoritarianism yeah so that's what the tech I'm gonna see how it all Blends together now like

it's like what are we actually building here so I I would I I wouldn't be against uh

fun coffee talk whether Omicron was let out by some white-hearted lab coat

wearing right it's like yeah happy uh you're gonna call it a good guy um

scientists or you could even argue that it was this freaking nature manifesting a solution yeah like we're not [ __ ]

going in this direction end a [ __ ] story right remember around Christmas time they were trying to talk about the

Kraken the Kraken you got this new sub they actually gave a name to the sub variant you're not supposed to give names to submariants they're like the

you got Jimmy Fallon up there singing like b-e-x did you see how crappy that was I don't know what he was doing it to

Like a Rock Lobster or something like that and they were like singing out the the name of uh the technical name of the

newest variant like what the hell are you doing

yeah yeah no so you're basically just through a happy Means of the expert

class because he's part of that media social media you know like telling the masses

um to be afraid and so who was right in November when we said no you know what we don't need to

wear masks when Karen Moore our medical officer here in Ontario said we should wear masks again in public and then like two days later he's caught outside not

wearing a mask in a in a private event somewhere if we had done what they said the expert

class would the cases be any different the Global Mail just said we're not going to record on it and masks have been taken off

the expert class was wrong you know I think I think there's something to your God principle that we

it exists in all of us and that's where we've become a little bit like heard and we simply and this is where democracy is

beautiful because we just simply vote at the end of the day they can only do to us like they say you get to the government you deserve they can only do

to us what we agreed to have done to us yeah if we simply say you can recommend all the [ __ ] masks you want I'm not

bloody well wearing it and then look here we are now uh past the Christmas rush of 2022 and we don't have this

issue anymore so and you know what they would have said we got through the best winter ever because of masking you think

they wouldn't have tried to then try to dress up their solution well I imagine it's also

the vaccines was really what people were harping on too at that time it's like you know they were trying to harp sort

of cut you off but I was looking at article yesterday from June City TV News June 2022 is it time that we update the

definition of what fully vaccinated means right right would have been utter [ __ ] because we didn't do it and yet

here we are to your God principle Omicron saved it it wasn't a third shot because we didn't

do it it wasn't more masking because we didn't do it you know and we have enough herd immunity which has now been proven

to be like 90 uh when you have a natural immunity uh and 90 in static what the

hell are we doing yeah yeah it really did uh it's embarrassing and as you look in the client's eyes and you see that they just

they don't want to they don't want to confront this yeah it's like it's again Plato's Cave they

do not want to know there's light outside of the cave and this is a deep psychological thing so I have I have the

same problems with AI I'm sure it'll turn out fine in the future but we need to take a full holistic approach to what

this is well I'm not so sure it's going to find turn out okay in the future like

you know again you know I I mean you sort of assume everything will eventually be all right but like uh you

know I don't know we've talked about AI I mean it's it's just here here's the

problem you know I know you love it do you want to tell me your favorite part of chat GPT or something like this no I

I don't well I think it's dangerous I think it's I I it really concerns me like I I feel hear people like Daniel

messler who's like a secure cyber security guy he just raves on about how great chat gbt is and it's like I mean

in terms of uh for example like uh coding like you

can say and this is one of the first things I did because I you know I I was like uh can you write me a program to do

like for example write me a blackjack program in Python boom done so it's like coding is solved you know what I mean

like anything that can be coded like you just you might have to prompt it to tweak things here and there but you can

get it done really quickly so they've moved Society over to these what were considered white-collar jobs of uh

coding and and stuff like that and will now be less than blue collar jobs

because AI can literally replace those people yeah and bring us back to vinyl records it brings you back to the point

like is anybody gonna gonna know how to code anymore like you know what I mean like and is that struggle going to be taken away are these people just going

to be on some Universal income with the rest of us I was white collar and I'm on Ubi yeah and they're so what happens to

a society to an individual when you have this or we're just going to be talking about how many genders like you know

today I'm this and it's like this complicated you know algorithm of how they feel precisely because that's all

people can talk about that's why they're creating the metaverse because simply you're not gonna have enough to do so you can just have like infinite amount of distractions and you're going to be

doing your self-serving Pleasure Principle which is gonna then divert into I just want more power in life and I'm not I want to have the AI to tell me

I can't have something you know it's it's not good I don't think it's going to be good for The Human Experience

yeah like it's kind of laughable in many ways I got a very um sort of like you were saying diverting your attention

it's like you know I think a lot of this technologically is very exciting and impressive but at the same time we're

just human beings we're just really animals so it's like and there's certain things you need you need to struggle you need that ratio and you know eventually

you're gonna die so like don't you want like how do you want to spend that life right do you want to spend it just you

know riding some technological wave where you're on top of the world I just

want us to create like mass suicide or something like it's like somewhere weird well some you know the green you know

the whole green like there's too many humans on earth like [ __ ] the planet can hold one trillion people if you know how to just use our resources properly

it's absolutely not like I think one trillion would be strong Society there's a famous person who said that in the

tech field but and they have numbers to prove it but my point is like when you look at the collapse of civilizations it's always predicated by a collapse and

population you know it's not because I agree too much I mean you can say they grew too much and therefore ran out of resources

but we can manage ourselves better than that globally these days so whether it's Easter Island the

Spartans in Egypt like it's always an Aztec so it was a decline in population you know

um so I I don't see a problem with over even more people like the more people

you have the more brains and what's what's more powerful than a human brain you know so there's more chances to utilize it correctly

right I think overall that does sort of win out um I think the well I mean I don't think

we have to worry about overpopulation just because of the by virtue of the declining birth rates but like um

abundance is amazing and we have nothing we're going to run out of matter like like you know like you can really

we're at the point we can almost make something from anything well you can you can have like the biodiversity of our

planet is deteriorating I think far more dangerous is our economic systems deteriority like if Rome had infinite

amounts of uh um Financial Resources they would have survived uh well I mean but you can't pluck one

thing out of um true true it's a Synergy of many things you're out you're ABS that's a very very good point you can't

because oh you could have gone to more power but you don't have enough manpower to actually have armies and this and that and you can say you could go find them but you can't find them because

they don't exist anymore but then it becomes a population thing like I think if you've got people and money you can

do almost anything um I've been reading about the Punic Wars

recently which is like interesting and I didn't realize that Rome really sort of grew into an Empire by virtue of

destroying Carthage like that was really their you know that was their uh what do you say like um

uh that was their World War II where they came out on top and barely took a long time Hannibal really gave them away

for their money Hannibal and his brother uh Hazard poll or something but they they both were kind of tag teaming for a

while like Hannibal sort of got all the Press but what with the elephants they both had elephants actually but but and

I guess they just the elephants were indigenous to Africa or something so it was like that's they're like they're

like oh we don't have uh I mean uh Alexander hundreds of years almost a

thousand years prior to that ran into the same problem when they went to India and they had the Asian elephants over

there too right right um yeah that's an awesome battle because at some point the way it goes historically they had all their failings

and they knew exactly what to do and the [ __ ] hit the fan right and they basically had to break ranks and became

like a bloodbath there's a reason why did you ever see that movie Troy with um they came out by Brad Pitt uh no no no

sorry not Troy Alexander they came off Farrell no I didn't see that uh and there's a moment where they get into that battle and it actually the the

entire film goes black and white because there's so much blood if it was in color it would be banned oh so they did a

great job in in that particular scene so they just became like a free-for-all because they nearly yeah and finally

nearly lost after taking down the Persians and everything um so yeah I mean yeah these there's power vacuums though and then once that

vacuum was like once that space was now depleted because Hannibal their empire

was uh receding Rome fills in the space they could divert the resources to expanding into Germania and stuff did

you ever think I just kind of I love Russian but like uh like there had to have been a point

where the soldiers are all up on these elephants they're marching through the Alps and it's freezing and the wind's hitting them they're just gonna look

around they're like what the [ __ ] are we doing why are we even doing this like or were

they part of that non-disclosure agreement we have to be doing this we know it's a good thing I don't know it's

psychological obviously they've created you know one of the interesting things Rome did is um like and we really are

you know they say when did Rome collapse it never really collapsed because we are the living descendants of it even in like the most legal of terms like they

were the first Empire that started like citizenship like you were just like a national you were actually for given

citizenship so when Rome would take over Morocco they're like well we're taking you over but guess what guys you get to

be Roman citizens well what does that mean well that means there's going to be courts and guess what when you go in there as a Roman citizen you have

certain rights you know and yes you're going to pay taxes but look we're building new aqueducts so you're going to get your money's worth you know the

most famous Roman aqueducts sexy little things uh yeah so I mean we're really living in the the shadow of

that kind of system still yeah yeah it was quite Advanced for the time like uh their ideas of sort of

what to bestow on their citizens and they actually turned their back a little when they were examining how to build

their empire they were looking at Athens and Sparta and they actually turned their back a little bit on the whole Athenian democracy thing because like

well look at these guys you know the mob voted this way one day and six months later they voted another way you don't

have any uh consistency to your project they actually so democracy I don't think really got you know even verbally used

again to like the 1800s you know we didn't so it's uh it wasn't like Rome did it they actually followed more of

the Spartan where they had um like two kings and one balanced each other and it was a senate and all that sort of stuff and yet there was citizenship and you

had rights but you didn't just go and drop rocks Black Rock White Rock and Roll right who we're gonna attack next you know

so that would be dealing with it that's right I think going back to chat gbt we've been dealing with these uh we've

gone into this another podcast that the fundamental problem is we don't quite understand what makes a perfect human

life yeah yeah and we're so um just progressing in

such a fast pace technologically we just haven't come anywhere near catching up with uh almost the ethics behind it or

the you know whether it is important to do these things like do we really want like

um I mean it certainly makes it more convenient to code something but is that do we want a whole you know swath of

individuals who don't know any how to code anymore from scratch do you remember that there was a Star Trek

episode I think next generation and uh they basically come to this planet this planet's got really Advanced humanoid

like people on it and uh they're very peaceful they have no Wars life nice long life longevity and so they're

really curious like who are these wonderful people let's go down and meet them and then they realize that um they

have some sort of biodome and the biodome is collapsing so like oh no should we tell them and help them we're going to break the whole like a prime

directive right um uh because it's a shame they seem like such lovely people and as they actually

start asking them like do you know about the biodome and like yes we're kind of aware of it but we don't know how to fix it well you have this you built it how

do you not know how to fix it well the computers made it for us well who made the computers our elders well who are

the elders don't you have that information anymore no we've lost it the time now oh wow so because our life became so convenient it actually was

beckoning their total demise so the whole do we interfere and help these people or not yeah that's interesting

because what a forward-thinking show yeah Star Trek yeah yeah um and little stories like that and

that's why it's hard to articulate when you're just chatting with your friends here and there but you know they kind of reside somewhere in your subconscious

like watch out like kind of like you know like European um you know they're like fairy tales and stuff you're told Rumple

still skin or something like there's little there's little truths in there but how even the Bible like how in Jordan Peterson will get into this like

there's psychological Truths Behind this that look you're going to look at the world for some sort of structure if it's

not religious you can look at it through a scientific early and there's no guarantee that the structure looking at looking at the world through is any

better than the previous structure because it's going to come with its own set of faults as well yeah and those same kind of hints or Easter eggs or

whatever are going to be in any tapestry you happen to subscribe to

um because it's yeah it's very subconscious or you know maybe planted there by Supreme Beings people who

architected this game were in or whatever um yeah that's all that's all very

fascinating and and you know I look at I look at things like you know

again with the Deep fakes or the Chachi PT it's like um I I look at it and I'm like it is almost

inevitable that we're going to like like basically it's like how do we do we number one do we want to stop this or

slow this or do something here to um to Halt the progression of this such a

rapid pace so we can kind of catch up with it and like have talks about it and like you know ingest it all before we

start like you know right now it's like people sending fake videos out of like you know Biden saying something or like

who know you know you'll get your own you know I just saw it last night on um on the news how like you know phone

scammers are now able to you know I could have I had somebody call my grandmother one time and say that I that

I was in prison and I was them and could they um could she wire some money or whatever and um they were you know my

family was about to do it and they finally got in touch with me and I was like oh yeah like I'm not in Montreal I heard Microsoft now they only need three

seconds of your voice and they can extrapolate from that like in three seconds that's crazy we're doomed at the

podcast right right basically um but it's but you know like that's I mean what do we do about that and and

you know I sort of was thinking about that because when preparing for the podcast I was like okay well that's I didn't want to just kind of come on here

and rant and like just be like okay well here's the problem like somebody else figure it out and um so you start

thinking about okay what are some reasonable ways we could um deal with this and the only thing I

could kind of come up with um is it something that would be punitive and

something that would be something that kind of goes against my grain as sort of a you know a borderline libertarian or whatever I was thinking you know you

need harsh penalties you need harsh penalty like human like human cloning for example you're a Libertarian they're

still they're still laws there's still well being a Libertarian almost assumes that the average person is going to be

of a certain intellect because you can always say the market forces and this and that but if you had the average person is just not like we're still all

part of the earth so like people can ruin it for the rest of us right like um but you get like something like human

cloning is something that was banned right like it's banned in a lot of places you're not allowed to you know

um clone a human being um and it's so you get into these

situation where maybe we maybe we need really harsh penalties for something like you know if you if you create a

video of like Joe Biden or somebody somebody else or anybody really like just across the board if you're going to

impersonate somebody else and make a um uh you know a video misrepresenting that

person you know it's like 20 20 years to life yeah so you know I think we're

hitting now the stage in society and actually we should have done this a long time ago it's almost suspicious that we

haven't done it yet but we need to set down a real um a real new Charter of Rights around

our digital lives and like fake you know like um deep fakes and Ai and like what's actually going to be permissible

not permissible and and sort this out at the highest levels unfortunately what I see is a lot of that energy and time and

brain power going to like we need to combat misinformation which is in the realm of you know things

spreading over the internet but not about protecting your rights on an individual level interesting it's more

about putting like the onus on the centralizing The Narrative around the authority figures and then let the

corporations have at it and just you know chip away and sell you whatever they want through through you know digital you know like or criminals like

you're saying uh with deep fake vocals like where are the rights around that stuff yeah this needs to be a national

conversation and I don't think we need a national Conversation Over misinformation it's simply like hate

speeches hate speech and you're an adult yeah like that's it you know yeah like let's you know again the question of

focusing our attention like you know this is this is something that is immediate that is happening now and like you know we have nothing to protect us

like there is you know what are and it's something that over the next year even is going to become something that's uh

becomes more and more urgent because you're going to get more people faking

um you know speeches from people like all it takes is one really

big Swindle that that kind of like causes a major incident and at that point of course then it'll be like oh

all hands on deck we got to take care of it but it's like we should do that now oh there's still

um you know it's still in its infancy back when Isis and we're getting those videos that were beheadings and stuff

like that like imagine in the future those were just all fake and literally it's enough to cause you to go off to war and divert trillions of dollars and

like literally you're creating the greatest transfer of wealth ever based on fake narrative well you remember it

really becomes like 1984 we were always at war against Oceania or whatever it was right right yeah like how do you

know what is uh what was the what's the guy's name the Dilbert guy who had the you know he said had that kind of like

racist rant on uh Twitter I don't I don't know oh really yeah yeah I forget

his name I don't follow that stuff Jesus the guy the guy who created Dilbert had this oh the Cartoonist the cartoonist

and he was saying like you know white people should stay away from black people and like this whole thing because the black people said they don't want to

be around white people yeah um but when I first saw that I was like

uh I was like is that real because that doesn't seem like anything anybody who is in the public eye would say like it

just seemed like such an outrageous like just in today's age especially even if you thought it it's like why would you

make a speech about it and I thought oh this is probably a deep fake like and I think that you know you know he he

almost could have just been like yeah it was a deep you know what I mean just like I didn't say prove it it wasn't me yeah well that's where it brings it back

to like you know going into the future like courts have to be done in person you can have like a zoom right you know

that person was really there yeah but you know this is the scary thing have you and I just walked into something is all this going to be rectified by a

solution some form of digital ID to verify you are the person that I said I'm talking to and so if we're gonna

have a zoom call and sign a mortgage I can be guaranteed that the person is really them and the only way to know

that is you're going to enter your digital ID yeah how do you get around that we've talked about all the problems

I bet you that'll be the solution that's presented well I I don't think that and you can be like hail hail the digital ID

now we have a new reality what the digital ID assures your reality well in

a way though that might be the only thing that that like you do need you do

need some aspect of authenticity and I think that you start looking at like uh used to be a handshake

okay uh old old folks pull up my Marlboros but I mean you do need

something to sort of authentic it's like a passport right like we have passports we have like um and I'm not arguing that

that digital ID needs to be tied to every facet of you know um Humanity I just mean that it's you

need something almost like a public-private key pair like you need something like your Bitcoin inarguably yours yeah that's why I think the

blockchain is like will be utilizing something is there two energies and this is your world more than mine so when

Elon Musk who I'm not necessarily 100 behind however most of the time I feel

like he's a techie person who's really just trying to create a lot of cool Tech and it comes off as very decentralized

and do you feel like Bitcoin then is that kind of energy and we have that

type of tech um advancing simultaneously with those who want to use such Tech in a much more

centralized fashion so I agree with you if your digital idea was just like your own personal password and it had no bearing and anyone else

could touch it it's it's a really cool thing but all of a sudden if it gets tied to like uh you know your Alarm Force knew

you just walked in today because your digital ID and you don't even have to tap in your code because we know it's you walking in right you know and as you

pass a Starbucks your phone will ring because we just know you walked past one and do you want a coffee at a discount today like it can get so bad yeah and

that's where I think we all come back we almost have to have like a new Charter of Human Rights a new digital human rights yeah and you wonder if they're

talking about it right like you wonder if this is a conversation I you know you hear the titles that our governments are talking about and it sounds completely

you know why they're wrong path because a cloud Schwab because because I think they they really don't want us to have

that type of uh individual freedom why why would they but well but but you're just we're saying about how they

were pushing the digital IDs so like they're but but they're going to use it in the more centralized fashion rather

than the Elon musk-esque decentralized fashion because why would a government ever want to give up I think that's why

give up power because I think that's why George Washington and all the founding fathers actually were onto something if

you're in power and you want to do things the only thing that's going to help you do more things is to have more

power so you have to have the rules in order to stop governments becoming too powerful right right it's it's an it's a

they could see psychologically that this was the Beast that it can become you know I I just thought of something

yeah I don't that's why I don't know if it's considered a conspiracy theory it's just more of like a self-serving set of

ideals and you can cut off the Prime Minister but it's going to keep going because it's really just coming down to human nature yeah yeah I can see that uh

playing out um you also wonder like the the rapidity of our technological Pro uh progress and

everything like that like if you take this to the if you sort of like extrapolate from there you say okay

well eventually we're going to have this situation where there is no individual anymore we're all part of this

similacrum that we've created we're all like you know basking in some weird

metaverse like Utopia the more likely that that is the more

likely it is that we're already in that kind of a loop like we've already done that and we've done something to wipe

our memory so that we are not remembering it like we we think that we're like this is all we're

uh encountering all this stuff for the first time but like it is more likely

that we've already been through this Loop and we're kind of going through it again what do you have

I'm gonna assume a bit of a trick question what do you have to kind of prove that were not in assimilation

I have nothing to prove like I have nothing to prove that we're not because anything that I could come up with as

evidence you I could have just say well I was just baked into the simulation right so this is where I think like even like science like at the end of the day

it's faith science has to at least when they're like I'm gonna research something you

have to at least admit the things you're looking at are what they appear to be yeah that requires a certain amount of

Faith right because if they aren't what you think you're looking at then the whole thing just falls apart yeah like

there is a certain amount of Faith baked in this science to some extent but I I think this is where you know things like

intuition come into play and I think the scientific method is extremely important because you have to um you know you

could drive yourself crazy think of all the hypotheticals and you can say like okay like I just certainly don't know yeah like at a certain point it's like

um I don't know like you listen to that Eric Weinstein thing and yeah I I found that such an interesting conversation yeah he

Rambles and yeah it's like whatever but he like this talk of

um going Beyond general relativity and this talk of like uh

um I don't know like thinking in multi-dimensions and stuff like that I

was trying to wrap my head around at listening to him and I'm kind of like well yeah like that's um

the more the further out you go with that the more faith-based it gets space and time being one that they mentioned

that like well space time is yeah once but one thing like it's quite amazing you know yeah well that's already I mean

that is all like Einstein proved that but it's like he's talking about stuff that are like is kind of you know

um going Beyond stretching Beyond general relativity which is like kind of

the highest point we have in science uh in terms of between that and like you know quantum physics it's like

um you really get into uh you know you can talk about it sort of as a

Layman like this stuff presumably when they're doing it they're doing it mathematically and that all makes sense so it's all based on something but like

if I look at it I don't understand the math so I look at it and I reach the limits of my sort of vocabulary with

that where it's like okay like that you get into some Faith bases that's why I don't know that's why I love and math like you know when they say like well

you know the Greeks didn't invent math all these other cultures obviously that one plus one equals two and the

Egyptians obviously knew what Pythagoras Theorem was because they built the pyramids you can't simply build such a structure if you don't a a squared plus

b squared equals c squared you know but what was interesting what the Greeks did before anyone else and why you could

say they invented math is because they invented the mathematical proofs so one plus one equals one okay what is

the proof to show that these two things actually equal one plus one equals two right and if you look at it's quite it's

not that's an easier one but it's a complicated formula to get to one plus one equals two and it's set on you know

as a certain presumptions and whatnot it's fascinating and then you extrapolate that into everything so even

the math there to your point they had to prove on the most fundamental level yeah

it couldn't just be like well this is just self-explanatory obviously one plus one is two prove it

you know do you like that you like that I just tried it the mathematical and that's why

you cannot you can argue that they invented mathematics because without the proofs you don't really have mathematics you got a bunch of formulas but you

don't actually have the the study of mathematics well I imagine there's certain pre uh

presumptions that come in almost

you know some there was something baked in ahead of time that you have to take for granted what's the word I'm looking

for like um something is like self-evident or whatever right like I mean you know what is one you know how

how how um how much do you want to deconstruct something like that right like

um because that's the thing right like the the deeper you go the more you know

you go beyond the atom and you get into the quarks and everything like that it's like okay like you know is there

something smaller than that sure like you could conceivably like um you know you could we're not really here if if there's spaces yeah exactly

it's all insubstantial like we're all just talking about like when we're staring when I'm staring at you I'm seeing what my brain is presenting as a

representation of you but it's you know but but how much do you want to like how

much does that serve us to to deconstruct that this might be something I was saving for the end but I'll ask it now okay and it's a tough one

because it this might be because I think you're getting there what then is the meaning of life

um [Laughter] yeah like

I think that I think that really it comes down to Faith I think it comes down to ultimately if you're going to

ask a question like that you have to believe um there's there's an underlying

um presumption of uh meaning right like you

have to like if you're saying what's the meaning it's like you could say like well who's to say there is a meaning right but I I believe there is a meaning

because I believe you know I believe in God why do I believe in God because my personal experience like and uh you know

Spirit you've experienced good I've experienced it I've experienced certain principles that I think like for example

like you know we talked about the struggle it's like the struggle like when I go to see my family you know I I

went to my brothers yesterday it was a three-hour drive to go there I saw him for like two hours and then came back

and it's like you know is that worth it it's like yeah at the end of the day I didn't want to necessarily make the trip

like it's a lot and it's like you know he's two new kids and it's like really you know like it's it's a hard thing to

do you know I'm not feeling the best these days so it was kind of like like it was a it was a bit of a struggle but I went there and the time I spent there

and I saw my mom and everything like that it was very like you know uh fulfilling you know that's the word I

would say I didn't have a great time I wasn't like partying it up or whatever but it was fulfilling I felt spiritually nourished from it so was it worth it

yeah it was worth it like does it could I bake that into a game and say like you know like that's the that's that my

dopamine levels were high or something no it wasn't but but somehow there was something else that made me feel good

about it and I feel that's a sustaining Force right so I that's amazing I I

didn't think you I thought you weren't gonna even be able to start the answer that's an amazing answer it was unfair

yeah well just drop this bomb in the middle of a podcast yeah yeah for me

like the meaning of life is almost Verbatim what you said it's like the adventure along the Route yeah yeah it's

not the destination it's not that dopamine hit it at the end it's not the convenience it's actually the adventure

along the Route yeah you know like where and where is that Adventure found like it's found in faith like I just

have faith it's going to be worth going to see your to see your brother as you did that day like I know this is going to be a good thing I just got to go for

it you know it doesn't make logical sense not really it was faith-based decision

um is this person right for me how do we find out by binding ourselves to it

and then seeing if that you know and truly binding yourself to another person that's the only way you're going to find out if they're right for you that's

that's a that's a moment of Faith yeah you know it really does going back to what you're saying like atoms and cells

like it is like it's on the atomic level you're literally binding two people together based on faith to see if this

is what is right for you is it are you going to find your meaning and life in that and how do we understand more about

life by binding ourselves to it it's literally the same thing bind yourself to life that's a faith-based

leap right and when we get into the realm of deep fakes and digital IDs and AI I see an unbinding to life

yeah it's less Faith it's more in a sense more predictable maybe or more what's more predictable than an

algorithm it's literally been baked into it right there's no unpredictable there's no Adventure along the way per

se that hasn't been preordained by the algorithm right so that that for me is all Faith you bind yourself to the

partner to see if they're right for you you bind yourself to life to see it's life itself like I'm Gonna Take It on is

this right and that's the adventure along the Route and it's really interesting because

um you know I can just imagine myself on my deathbed and it's like you look back and

say how different really was my experience from that of somebody thousands of years

ago you know you born you lived a little bit you experienced a little bit and then you died and like

um all these sort of extraneous little peripherals that you have along the way that are like

um you know the fact that I'm able to go on the internet whereas 2000 years ago they couldn't do that you know they may they make your experience a little

different but ultimately if you're talking about it's almost beside the point in terms of what life is all about

in the first place right so like um we've gotten again a question of where

you brought this to a question of distraction and like where is your focus and like I think that that's a big

problem with society today is our focus is so far a skew of where it should be

that we're not talking about you know individuals our rights going forward in terms of you know like how how are we

knowing that we're human beings and we have these sort of underlying predispositions how are we then going to

allow this new world to fit with our needs as opposed to just you know

bullheadedly you know progressing along like at a you know comets Pace toward

whatever disaster we're heading toward you know like uh let's let's remember who who serves who here you know

yeah that's fantastic I mean I'm sure at a certain point when they had you know

the first ships crossing the Mediterranean this is amazing we can experience so much more than you know uh

living in my own little trumanville sort of thing you know um but inevitably they had a life they lived it they died did

it really change how they perceived their life to a degree you know they'd make their life easier sure uh trading importing

Goods but did it change the meaning they got out of their life probably not yeah you know

uh you could yeah you know whether you've owned a pet or had a child you can find meaning in

the most simplest of things yeah um and it's funny you know like seeing like I don't have kids so I saw my

brother but my brother's very much in many ways like me in the sense of how we see the world and you know like sort of

laugh at the same things or whatever we've always had similar personalities like he's he's definitely we're definitely different people but it's

like he's um you know he sort of uh like similar enough that you know seeing

him yesterday like he's like just acts like a buffoon around his kids right like talking in baby talk and it's like

it's like there's other I'm like I felt like saying you know like we're all here sitting here watching you right like you're like this isn't is this how

you're behaving now like um and it's crazy he's just obsessed with his kids and he's like acting completely

different and it's like I was trying to figure out like what is what is causing him to act like like this uh you know

and I it's like oh it's love and it's like he feels this Bond toward his kids that I don't I don't know like I and

it's but it's it's amazing because there's Jason in there that you're not aware of right yeah or but it's it's it

just elevates The Human Experience right because you're like you're like he doesn't care that he looks like an idiot right now he's just trying to be you

know this is how he's expressing how he feels and that's much more important to him than how he looks and that had

nothing to do with any technological invention exactly exactly it's really rudimentary yeah yeah and yeah um yeah

it's almost like technology technological advances are like fashion they're nice to have but they don't

inevitably change your basic needs right you know and it's funny like I you know even talking to him because I was like

so how was it you know I was talking to him and his wife and um you know my mom left and everything and I was there on

my just talking with them and uh I was like so how were things I mean like in terms of the last month and

they were like January it was really hard they're like really struggling to kind of get through like they had their kids in December and it was like the

First full month and it was you know it's like January so everything's crappy as it is but like um and it doesn't

sound like a real struggle and it kind of got a little bit easier but like it was really you could almost see that

it was that you know they they climbed the mountain and now they're kind of on the other side of the mountain it's still not easy they're still like

navigating their way but they're starting to like there was an achievement there that

um like that was that was part of the experience that was the adventure along the Route yeah yeah the hero's journey

you know they have you have to visit the underworld and it's dark in order to come out the other side but you come you

never come out lesser of a man yeah you just don't I think with this digital AI stuff and

deep fake so you will come out lesser of a man right you will be diminished as a human

you won't be you won't be enhanced it'll be sold as an this is a weird thing everything result today it's literally

it's like the upside down is the complete opposite will be sold that it's an enhancement of sorts and it will be

in some ways for it to make sense but inevitably it'll diminish you as a human

being yeah yeah like you wonder whose benefit it's for right because like who can benefit

from this sort of ability to replicate other people and like

um and if there's no benefit you know maybe like human cloning like we we start legislating against it like you

know we can do that still right like I mean um and yeah like I think you know I don't like to impugn people's freedom

you don't want to impugn Scientific progress but sir you start going down dead ends again you get back to the atom bomb it's like okay like you know like

there was a necessity to do it at the time does it make sense to like but if there was no war if we had a peaceful

Society we were pursuing this as a weapon then that does that make sense like of course it doesn't because like it can't benefit anybody like um like

there has to be a benefit to society to continue to do something otherwise you should shut it down as a society yep

yeah um so I don't know is there you know I um

we are Frankenstein this is a lot of stuff to talk about and it's like you

know I I really I don't like the idea of uh um

coming on here and not really having solutions to problems but it's like

you know and I sometimes I'll listen to podcasts and it's like I find it interesting and I find it like um I think it's important but unless

other people are all having the same conversation it kind of is almost like whistling in the wind like you're you're

you're talking um you know I we might as well I guess what I'm saying is this needs to be a

national conversation and you know the countries need to be talking about this at the highest level there you go centralizing things again or is this

late resistance and it's just people having conversations on a low level uh in such a small level that it doesn't

even hit the national powers of B Radars and it changes the consciousness of

where humanity is going maybe I would like to think that but organic and small but it's small

incremental changes that actually win the game well but not if the other changes are taking place at uh staccato

Pace right like if you have technological progress happening so quickly like we could have our little

conversations about you know how like the ethics of such and such and meanwhile you know they created a

doomsday I mean I do love looking at stories and like I said grabbing like the the meaning out of them but correct

me if I'm wrong like the story of Adam and Eve when the snake comes down and offers the Temptation with of knowledge

right yeah so I'm always skeptical of knowledge because knowledge kind of will in when

used incorrectly take away from faith yeah well I I know this I don't have to

just believe it and it's the knowing in you know agnostic Gnostic you know you

can get into these the root words they're really interesting right and so then was there something there that the

knowing will create short-term gains like obviously you know

now that you're naked you know that you need shelter you know that oh shelter needs heating oh you need to have a

agriculture not hunter-gatherer no no no and now at this point now like let's

call it 15 000 years since then uh let's say um where the we have increased the

amount of knowledge at such an exponential rate the trick is starting to play out that it is changing faster

than we can possibly understand whether these changes are good for us or not yeah you know and that's the trick and

that's what causes the death of humanity yeah and then yeah the trick is that it's you know of course don't you want

to be a little warmer that's good isn't it yes it is because you understand what it means to be cold and it takes time to

build a house but now literally every week there's such a leap in technology and we are not ready to handle these

leaps yeah and that will make us trip up screw up and you know with possibly end

Humanity uh you ever think that to brings it back to your God principle because maybe that's when the thing has to actually

kick in that will always tap out and not let us reach that point yeah you wonder right like I mean I like

do you think that you know we'll all you know annihilate ourselves and when we're up there at the Gates of Heaven or

whatever uh you know God's gonna be like man I couldn't have been any clearer with that [ __ ] Bible like it's like

it was literally the Apple it was a freaking snake dude it wasn't a kitty cat yeah it's like what do I have to do

like um I I think and and so this is where again we need to know ourselves as humans because like I was saying before

those those who are more engineering minded and just like to Tinker away and build for the sake of building maybe that's part of being humans we just like

to create we're like little ants we create because we want to create but then there's the higher order level of

thinking that I think it's more like people oriented psychological it's it's a little more incomporeal you can't

touch you can't feel it but what makes a good human and we need to get the merger of these two things just right and I

think as the world has become more technological it's been easier to focus on the one and neglect the other yeah I

think that's the story of the last 100 years yeah we've got to get the balance uh right again

all right well I I anything else you want to say no that was I think we got to some I think we hit

you know it sometimes reminds me when I listen to like Jordan Peterson you know ramble away and you're like oh man like

it's just I think I think I'm losing my focus and also boom out comes like a truth bomb yeah yeah and you're like oh

I almost turned the channel you know he was rambling he does that sometimes and you're like that was like am I just I

feel like I just listened to like an Aristotle moment you know like wow like he literally got to a truth

and it's like a dark tunnel that he's weaving his way through and you can be easily lost I think when you have nice conversations

like this at a certain much less profound level you have those moments where you touch down to certain truths

and you walk away from it and you're like you know chew on the fat a little bit like that there was something there

yeah I don't know what that was but something something is there yeah and that's what I think we do best with

these sort of conversations it's like you know there's you know in a common man sort of way there's something there

man let's look in that direction kind of like your you're steering the ship in a certain direction yeah I don't know how

far the journey is or where it's quite going but it needs to move that way right you know and that's why I think

it's fantastic and I hope everybody who listens to it finds it the same way yes and thank you for listening today and um

uh we'll bid you all a good day please uh subscribe if you haven't and we will

talk to you next time take care folks foreign

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