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Aug. 13, 2022
09 - State Power and the Entropy Blues
Jason and Dimitri talk about the growing trend of western governments to leverage technology in order to influence public opinion and increase their hegemony over the average citizen. They also specifically detail a handful of new laws that act as testaments to this theory. This conversation was recorded on July 31, 2022, in Toronto, Canada.
Transcript
hello welcome to intimate discourse my name is jason this episode state power in the entropy
blues was recorded on july 31st 2022 the year of our lord
in toronto ontario canada we really want to thank you for listening to us today and i hope you
have a really good week and month even enjoy
[Music]
hello folks uh welcome to intimate discourse this is jason and i'm here
with dimitri i am dmitry he is all right so we've had a lot of technical difficulties with the show
we've recorded it several times i've had i've said this very sentence several times um
we have yeah we've recorded hours of content for this thing and um we're gonna come back at it hopefully
for the final time although we've said that before too you know what though i love it it's a process yeah right the whole thing is an
organic process and we're just getting better incrementally and you know maybe maybe this is a
metaphor for what we're even talking about today trying to understand the process that's happening on earth and
how to make it better one step at a time right well part of the birthing process leave it to you to put a positive spin
always all this disaster that's right um all right so this uh this episode
folks what we're trying to do here and you know thank you for listening uh let me let me say that because i
um i really this process it becomes a real echo chamber if nobody's listening and uh you know i do
like having these conversations with dimitri um but i really like knowing that there's an audience out there
that's also hearing this and again if if anyone has anything
any comments they want to make please send us a message and we would like to get a conversation
going with others as well we've got a few other things in the pipeline in terms of
developing this into a little more of a community as well so we can get some more feedback but by all means shoot us
an email message us on facebook and we'll have we'll have a few other
mediums open for your convenience soon so we can kind of get this conversation a little more
um by what would you say what is the word for that like
two-way i guess say bye communal yeah i don't know just maybe communal like uh you know i just i
really probably said this before another podcast we just you change the world one conversation at a time whether it's with
one person one-on-one or you know 100 people listening or a million people listening so um and i don't know if you folks have
noticed but dimitri's got a new mic and he's kind of showing off his new digs here right that's right you know it
really your voice comes through really really clear and i feel a lot more natural yeah yeah it sounds a lot better
we're in the same room it's true yeah what we'd like to talk about today is what we view as a movement of western
governments to restrict the rights and freedoms of its citizens we've discussed some of these themes in
previous episodes whether it's coveted vaccine policies gun laws infringements upon free speech
all these issues betray a tendency whether well-intentioned or malicious or even whether it's conscious or
unconscious of governments of the western world to gravitate toward restricting the rights
and freedoms of its citizens and what's worse a willingness of the people to accept this
i'm not sure that this isn't even a universal constant if you remove mal intent from the
equation even and give the benefit of the doubt in order to govern mass numbers of people in the most effective way and to
do the most good for the most amount of people things generally work better when the government isn't hamstrung by contrarian voices bellowing out their
discontent from the bleachers this is why a dictatorship tends to be the most effective style of government
in terms of actually executing their mandate and it is after all the job of
democratically elected governments to not only represent the will of the people but to ensure that the policies
which represent the will of the people are implemented in the most efficient the most economical way possible
governments by and large tend to gravitate toward increasing state power it's almost a natural byproduct
it's up to the people and to the courts to ensure that the government is held in check this is why western democracies like
canada and the united states have broad first principle frameworks within which the government must operate
the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and the u.s constitution and bill of rights
these relatively immutable tenants were drawn up with the idea that they could be used to keep the government in check
should they ever get too big for the bridge but these first principles are only as
powerful as the people's will to enforce them and their will to stand up in defense of them
all too often these days we've seen a dangerous acquiescence to authority among the subjects of western nations
this apathy of the people tends to run in tandem with the prevalence of technology you could be lured into thinking that
with technology the people are now better educated and can make more informed decisions on say who they're
going to vote for or which companies they'll buy from etc and you might even be tempted to think
that these governments and corporations are now being held to account more than ever before because the power is now
with the people who have a direct voice and who can amalgamate those voices into angry virtual mobs which can cancel
a-list celebrities for breakfast and bring a fortune 500 company to heal by the end of the week
you may be tempted to believe this and this might even be true in some cases but not in the aggregate
to explain what i mean i'm going to zoom out quite a bit about as far as i can go actually and look at the universe as a
whole and the physical laws that we perceive to be governing it one of those axioms is that entropy is
always increasing we're moving from an intensely structured pseudosingularity the big
bang to a dissimilated dissolved watered-down hopelessly unstructured mist
entropy or disorder is always increasing another way of looking at it is that
everything is averaged out over time the average is the norm i guess by definition
the average is the norm and the only thing stopping us from asphyxiating right now is entropy in theory all the oxygen molecules in
this room could decide to congregate into one corner leaving us with no air to breathe
it's fairly random whether any individual molecule will go to one corner of the room or the other or the middle of the room or whether it will
just flip right under our noses but they'll move somewhere and on average they'll fill the room and we'll
be able to breathe that's entropy it's like the idea of flipping a quarter there are actually websites you can go
to that will simulate this if you don't want to get your hands dirty these sites are actually really cool for those of us who like statistics by the way
anyway you might find that if you flip ten coins you'll get seven or even eight that come up heads or tails every once
in a while randomly you'll you'll get that kind of a distribution but the more times you flip them if you go beyond 10
to 20 or 50 or 100 the more that you do that the closer your overall average of heads versus
tails will gravitate toward exactly 50 which is what you would expect that's just
that's entropy everything breaks down and smooths out over time if you only had a handful of air
molecules they might all congregate into one corner and we would die but if you
have trillions upon trillions of air molecules in a room which we do the likelihood that they'd all move to one
corner is but as likely as you rolling a pair of dice and them coming up snake eyes millions of times in a row over and
over now i'm sure a physicist would block a micro-relating social systems with his
principle there seems to be at least a little bit of a parallel here or in any case i'm going to force one through
what we're talking about today is a consolidation of power and a homogenization of values more and more everyone is getting the
same message and more and more people are falling in line with it where once we'd have city states and
quaintly distinct village communities now we have mega cities and world governments
or once there was bach and davinci now there's the kardashians reality tv and a seemingly endless deluge of insipid
marvel movies all seemingly designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator
people used to stand up and fight for their rights against all odds with their lives on the line and with disparate organization
but in the west most of our protesting is done through listless retweets and hapless virtue signaling and those that
actually do put something on the line to protest often seem misguided or unfocused
tending more to strive toward nihilistic impulses than fighting for a cause that they truly believe in
okay sure this isn't always the case entropy doesn't just come in and destroy everything all at once after all there's
still beautiful music being made stories being told that are riddled with magic and intrigue there are still events like
the canadians trucker canadian truckers convoy the arab spring even individuals like edward snowden and
julian assange who despite what you might think of their politics are still counted among those who raise their fists against the tyrannical onslaught
of thermodynamic inevitability but in the aggregate we are slipping as
children of democracy while we're empowered by technology and can use it to help us learn and mobilize
the governments and major corporations of the world are just much more adept at it in countries like china or some of the
more totalitarian regimes out there today the use of technology to achieve the will of the state can be devastating
your movements can be monitored with ease what you say can be recorded your beliefs and even your thoughts can be
distilled into quantifiable scores to assess whether you're a good citizen or not
democratic governments of course can't openly do such things not yet anyway if you're a democratic government you
serve the behest of the people at least in principle and the people don't want to be governed in such a way
we want our freedoms we want our privacy we want a white picket fence a high salary job a purpose
love and the american dream we want all the upsides of a technological society and none of the
downsides and we don't want to put too much work into it either we want it all and we want it made simple for us
and so and so if you're governing such a society you can never actually go against the will
of the people you'd be destroyed but the good news is you don't really have to
you merely need to use the vast array of tools at your disposal to bend the people's will to what you already want
and with that simple trick the world is yours and so to sum up
to sum up my little soliloquy here and of course thank you for your patience in indulging me
uh what we seem to be seeing as the trend in western societies is our tendency it tends to be toward
more government control more homogenization less creativity um and i
say this in the wake of there being some incredibly creative and incredibly uh you know genius people in the world well we're all human that's gonna keep
popping up you know right as each mountain collapses and you know averages into some boring mean you
almost hope that new ones simultaneously pop up and new ones will pop up but but overall
you're getting more and more entropy into the system so your overall will eventually they'll all drown out so
like for sure like is the world not far more centralized today than just 100 years ago right yeah yeah for all the
variations in diversity inclusion and equity and everything else it's still more centralized for sure yeah
well yeah i mean just look at our like um you know the current problems with the supply chain and everything it's like
you know it's a very uh very centralized and very like you know
mostly people are buying things from amazon right like you know despite you know despite whatever you want
anyway so i might have i'm not sure how okay what i would say is that um i would like
to sort of set the stage there and just sort of say that is we're more and more coming toward this kind of one world
idea that's why you have big things like the imf or the world bank or like um
uh what what is the globalism even you know it's a 90s word but it was the first sort of uh
what would you call it mass acceptance of such ideas right right isn't it great you know we can spread the wealth around
the world and employ people in different parts like yeah absolutely you know this is amazing but it comes
it's a double-edged sword yeah and like you know it's funny because i i i think of like being in other countries and
seeing like mcdonald's there and don't you think like i don't know there's something just so
like there's no difference what do you feel jay when you see mcdonald's i feel like it's ugly that's what it is
i agree with you or like you want to go to rome and walk into perhaps a substandard cafe compared to your
starbucks but have that authentic roman experience and that may be quote unquote
a substandard experience but it's still authentic to the moment and place you're in right you know a lot of a lot of
history has led up to culturally um how the person is going to interact with you the type of coffee you're
drinking the noises and sounds in such a cafe it's unique and whether it's better or worse isn't really
what we're looking for it's the fact that it's authentic to the place you're in yeah um well but the funny thing though with
the mcdonald's thing is like when we're going to say olive garden because i assume that
that was made you know that was like an american company but like if you you know the you're getting the only
thing that's ugly about that is that i'm used to seeing mcdonald's right so like if you're in i'm sure everybody is now
but good point you know what i mean so they have their own things like if you see i don't know i'm thinking of a chinese restaurant like you know dragon
court or whatever something dragon um that those places here it's kind of like
you know i'm sure chinese are rolling their eyes it's like oh i wish they'd like i mean here i'm not here for this
i'm here for like to go on a authentic like you know american or canadian experience um anyway
um yeah i do the you know you see it more and more and i know everybody talks about like
um you know i i don't like seeing
like like i'm all for like i love different ethnic foods and everything like that but i there's something about
the um like i don't know ethos i guess or whatever
like of a culture that it's like it's almost like a a pristine beach like you don't want
that to be you don't want little like you don't want more and more people coming there right rough around the edges is more natural
yeah right and that has its own beauty even if it's rough right you know when i see an all-inclusive hotel i cringe
yeah when i think about the i don't know just the politics or the fact that capitalism is allowed on this
one little part of the cuban beach but the rest of the people suffer right i cringe yeah you know there's nothing even though my experience as a consumer
may be better i just don't want to be part of that fake environment it's like the truman
show really yeah don't walk off the compound right right you'll have a great time if you stay
here yeah that's not real i might as well stay in my backyard or when people go on vacation and they swim
in swimming pools i never say you have the caribbean america i don't i don't like fish
why are you there to stay in a pool you know and put a 3d projection on top of your head you don't
need to be there yeah i mean there's something to be said for nice resource and you said all-inclusive hotel i'm like i don't know i kind of
like all that that's where i like the thing but uh i i do know it's a motivation i don't mean disparaging way
i've done it once and the the first day i was like so this is it like i'm this is my this is my play pen right yeah
like that's it this is this is it this is it i'm not going to be getting on an atv and exploring anywhere else you know
like literally i'm gonna sit on a lounger right here and you know by day two or three i was
in a groove and i understood sort of like a almost like a puppy dog in its crate like okay this is a nice pen and i chose
this pen you know i can leave the pen when i want to but i have to admit even it was a seven-day trip by day four i was like
okay i'm done of this like i i'm relaxed enough i need some adventure yeah yeah yeah it depends on what you want from uh
i guess yeah vacation i guess but uh yeah but i i your your point is well taken like there are um
like that is a more authentic experience and like you know if you want to um
really um well it goes back a lot to what we were talking about in another episode uh
where it's um this whole idea of you know if you're you're if you're a
spirit look if you're a spirit who wants to find who wants to be sort of alive and it's like what are the things you
would wish for for being alive and it isn't necessarily comfort right so it's uh it's that idea of experiencing things
and such anyway let's not digress too much into a previous episode um
okay so i think there were two trends that the two sorry two um
events that occurred in the um um the late 2000s
and or the early 2010s that kind of um uh i think had catapulted us toward
what we're seeing a lot i think there was a trend toward it anyway for sure um but these things sort of almost were
like a jump start or a great accelerant grid the great accelerants yes um uh number one was the uh invention of
the iphone which was such a revolutionary idea of course you had blackberries before that um but it but
something about the iphone uh i guess the slickness of it and the ability to
have apps that you would use like you know people used to go on facebook you know on their computers at home or whatever but when
they finally could could sort of um you know you're on the computer at home you could always
unplug you would you'd go you'd get called for dinner you'd go outside you'd go you know you'd go on a date with
somebody and you wouldn't necessarily be thinking about facebook or be thinking about twitter or whatever um now you carry that around with you
you can you know you can be out on a date and still continue to um you know
go on twitter and you can go to bed and you can curl up with your little facebook feed um so these are
profound changes uh you know and we could do entire shows just on the effects uh
there's there's so many effects psychologically and sociologically from that invention and from
the embracing of that um you know it really is like a new appendage like it's um
you know i think there's some truth to the whole um meme about people not wanting to be
you know like you taking away their phone and it's like causing some sort of existential crisis for people like i think that that's i think you know i see
that you know i i don't think i'm personally there like i i um i really try to limit the use of
the phone but it's a real conscious effort that i have to do um and i don't know and i'm not trying to
i'm not trying to sound like i'm one of the cool ones but it's a pandora's box yeah yeah you know it has everything in
it right the good the bad and the ugly yeah yeah and it really is a it really is like you can't once you once you open
it up it's hard to tear yourself away from it for sure um by design by design yeah of course yeah
by perpetual design as well like they're still uh doing things and you know whatever like i mean i'm not even blaming
necessarily technology companies for doing this like they're trying to do what sells like i mean i think there's some sense of social
responsibility they should have there but more like it's more really it's up to the people you know i i yeah i'm libertarian
that way too but it's interesting because a lot of these companies are all clamoring for their esg scores you know their environmental social and good
governance yet but we'll make it as addictive as possible shouldn't that be part of the score you're gonna be doing
something like that but you know it really does become part of like at the end of the day it's like you
really do get the government and the society that you deserve and like if people are
not um if it doesn't matter to somebody that their iphone is made in a sweatshop you
know what i mean um and people like are trying to you know are sort of prevented from killing themselves because they're so
depressed with their life uh you know but they hit a net and then it's like oh back to work and like you
were gonna take away come some of your pay for like trying to kill yourself there like if there's a situation where
um you know if people are know about that and are still okay with
using their iphone um and not to say you know again like i i don't know like this is like
you know you this isn't like you know there are there are companies that make these things that you hear stories about
you know whatever the sub companies from uh apple and other you know manufacturers of
electronics like a lot of these things are made overseas and they're made like you know so these kinds of things do happen but like
you know it's the same thing with you know people making you know like the clothing a lot of people wear right like a lot of stuff
is made in sweatshops as well so it's like if if consumers consumers have basically said to
producers um we don't care about that stuff you know we will still buy it wait i'm gonna think i'm gonna fall a
little more leftist on this than you okay because just like we have ingredients that have to be listed on everything you buy and
was it frozen or fresh and this and those are those are government regulations um
and uh there's certain ingredients that are allowed in certain ingredients that are not allowed and those are also government
regulations could you not also argue that when it comes to something like social media there should be warning labels and regulations on how addictive
how many notifications you get a day what's the color of said notification because these
colors are more addictive than those colors like you could break down a health meter probably in a good way to make it
um viable versus a highly addictive way of making it viable
and wouldn't not one sense when having government regulation in this case actually make the app still profitable
and functional just um but adhering to rules that are a little more health conscious
um because if you just let the wild wild west go then you'd have you know cigarettes available from the age of five and older with no labeling on it
and who knows what ingredients are inside well i would say that it's the parent's job to know i mean i think that
would your cigarettes could be like have no ingredients and no warning label because if so then it's logically consistent
well um no i i i like i it's hard to answer because i'm
coming at this from the context of obviously everybody knows about cigarettes being bad for you but but i guess that wouldn't be obvious in a
world where there wasn't a label now you gotta if we've only had this like you said for 10 years imagine going just 10
years into life of commercial cigarettes availability where we didn't know such things about it well
before you know we're all addicted because we just let it go i think there's a there's a part to play for like the canada health or like the um
fda like i think there are um um there they have a part to play in this stuff yeah like warning labels and
everything like that and making sure food quality is up to snuff everything you know you know but i think that
you start talking about somewhat more intangible things like for example the colors that they're able to use on
you know ads on facebook or something it becomes more like well that's just advertising like like that's what
they're supposed to do is they're trying to sell you know or like you know but can we be hacked like is this just like
psychologically hacking people to the point it's happening on a subconscious level and you just become victim of it because
you don't even know what's happening to you no i think that that is a abdication of responsibility for the average
consumer like i think that people have and i think that's part of the problem is that people have just rely too much
on the government or even companies to some extent like well i love my mac or whatever and it's like
like you know your mac doesn't necessarily love you like you know what i mean like mike what are you loyal to microsoft like you know
there's um well if it becomes an addiction yeah will feel loyalty to it for sure
yeah people people do or cult-like or even people when they work for certain companies it becomes like their
self-identity and their occupation become one and the same well it's like people who are buying like i understand people buy like shirts that say nike on
it or whatever because uh you know sometimes you just get a cheap shirt and it says it on or whatever but there are
people who actually buy shirts because of a brand like remember the whole dolce gabbana thing where it would like people
would get them just because it said dolce gabbana yeah so what are you at like you're just
you know i don't know the the people who people who do that kind of thing you know i think they're making sort of
a poor choice like i think that that's but they're making a choice like they have like if you choose to take your phone to bed
with you and sort of like forego all your regular relationships with your family and your friend and you you're
it's more important to you how many like likes you get on your instagram post then i think that it's um you know
you've you've created you've made your bed you know sort of should it be like an age limit and such a thing
yeah probably apps that are like you know like uh under 18 years of age these are the colors and notifications you
have to have if you have an app and over the you know after eight and once you're an adult because i'm with you completely on the you know once you're an adult um
any regulation i'm sort of um you know behind here greatly diminishes but there's still got to be some
framework well i would say that it's the parents responsibility to make sure that their kids aren't exposed to that kind of stuff although i wouldn't necessarily
be opposed to like some sort of like the thing is you can always get around that anyway it's not like you're gonna like what they can't sell to a seven-year-old
so what if there was a cartoon on that had like i don't know um gratuitous scenes um
and it was just on tv well the i mean they parents would have a responsibility to
not let their kids watch that now if you're saying like well how would a parent know they can't review every
single thing well then the television station would gain a reputation for
being somebody who does weed that stuff out right like that's how those things evolve in a corporate market i just i don't know i think going back to your
opening statement how things are sort of homogenized around a standard i think that standard could be
just a that's just the way it's always been of course kids watch pornography at the age of nine you know kind of thing
but they're all but there are things are already homogenizing like whether it's it's just that governments are more
involved than they should be like i'm not saying there shouldn't be government involvement in anything i'm just saying that like we have to limit it to more
almost quantifiable things i'm all for small government too just but small and precise and with like really good
like reasoning small and precise and yeah good reasoning and yeah quantifiable so like if you're saying like you can't have more than um
um you know 0.2 micrograms of some toxin or whatever something that is bad
for you like the the whole trans fat thing if you're going to sort of enforce something like that and you're you've
done studies and you can show the public that you know it is uh demonstrably bad for people if you're
eating this much trans fat like you but but but it has to be real bad like it has to be like this is going to like you
know kill people make them sick whatever then you there is a line there where i think
the government can step in and say like okay well we've we've measured it here's what it is here are our studies here our findings and then it's like okay that's
fine that's quantifiable you've shown the studies you have something to back it up um but if you start getting into like well
we have to make sure that everybody calls people their preferred pronoun or like any number of other subjective i am
counter to my point if they you know if they were to say i don't know um we have an app on your phone and we know how much red meat you
ate this week and we just know too much red meat is bad so therefore we're going to step in now jason so you can't have any more red meat i'm like well let me
make that decision or let you make that decision you're an adult right you know like thanks for the heads up i'm going
to make my own decision yeah like if they want to put for to that point like if you want to put warning labels on
cigarettes or something i don't necessarily agree with that but but if you want to i can understand that that's
that's the theoretically you can put a warning label on anything then sure there's a warning where do you actually
when you open that yeah yeah like um i think it makes it i think i would prefer that because at least it's like
people still have the choice to do it right like you could get the thing uh going off in your phone about you can't have any more red meat and you can be
like well i'm just disregarding that and having it anyway as long as that doesn't come with a negative impact on any sort of you know right right squares yeah
simply a heads up you know the but that boy that sure makes things easy for actuaries right
like because if you're if you're have all that information it's like boy they're like if they weren't
if they weren't um figuring out the most optimum choice of clients then like before then they sure
will with this this is a difficult question because then you know it's kind of like to counter my point again
um to be my own like the road to hell is paid with good intentions yeah you know it was a good intention to
stop you know to put regulations in and whatnot but what are you are you actually empowering the individual citizen
to make their own conscious decisions and be independent in thought or are you simply uh having nanny states so well
this is the problem i have with governments like you know this is why it really needs to be the absolute minimum
like when you hear these people like we've talked before well within their gun control episode you know it's like you have people passing laws
because you know it's easy to sell to a public like this thing is bad so
uh you know we nobody wants anything bad right like like that kind of a thing and the government is interfering and then
taking away a right or something like that we have to be very careful about that as a society because even though we might not agree with one particular
thing it's the overall encroachment of rights to get greater and greater throughout the years
yeah yeah where does it end and right for one person is not right for another exactly yeah that's interesting
um i don't know if i have an answer for that one though but uh yeah sometimes you do and sometimes you don't
yeah it's a tricky one yeah because i can it's the kind of thing i can always see the other side of
this where it's like okay like you take it in isolation a lot of these things seem reasonable it's like you know with
the guns it's like okay well we don't want you know it's hard to argue with somebody who's just like lost somebody
because of gun violence and they're saying like well what do you need the gun for anyway and it's like okay well like because i don't necessarily have a
great need for a gun but at the same time i want to be able to have one if i want one like um if other people are
allowed to have them there's just so many cases that where government regulation has truly you know made our
life better you know like building codes safety on vehicles if we simply left it
to the free market i think it might average to just whatever is more profitable
for the corporations yeah yeah you know like remember our generation the side impact beams on cars
you know if it wasn't actually put into law would every car manufacturer put those in or would you like well some do and some don't what was the side impact
beams you remember around the um early 90s they sort of made a new regulation where your doors
on the side had to have beams horizontal beams that were regulated to a certain strength so if
you got t-boned you had a side impact beam and it was regulation yeah like they must have them going forward sort
of thing so i mean you know if i left that to the free market would maybe just volvo have done it and i would just opt
to decide to do that what if volvo simply priced a little too high outside my and i'm like well i would like to buy
it but i just can't so i'm gonna have to settle for my hyundai or something and just
yeah you make a decision based on what's important to you right like i think that's the way it should be rather than governments i understand what you're
saying and like i think that again you can take something in isolation and say that so i think that
there's you know you could you could certainly make a case for it and it's a reasonable case to be made but it's like
you know it's like seat belts and cars you know like i i mean i think people have a choice
um and then again going back to another episode smoking in clubs you know like you have the choice to not go to the
club you have the choice not to buy like a a car that seems like it's going to be more dangerous to buy and then you have
the in the sort of ingenuity of enterprise to say well guess what we're going to have the
beam here's an advertisement showing the difference between the two things but i i see what you're saying it's like what
happens in the meantime we're like okay great what happens for the 20 years before that actually happens so there's a time delay yeah and then i guess just
uh just the last bit like on a more macro vision point of view are countries that
are more heavily regulated in this sense have a better quality of life for their citizens or worse like for instance i
would assume central africa doesn't have much regulation if you leave it just to the
corporations that go in or whatever i don't see much uh elevation and standard of living but then to counter my point you can go
to like russia during communism or china which i'm sure they're far more regulated than we are
but then you know to counter my point is one thing that regulation nothing to actually have um efficient uh
what do you call it like enforcement of regulations because we might say china's heavily but i've heard you know like
yeah it's more like the wild west and if the government happens to catch you then you're really in trouble but for the most part people do right less
regulation you can actually fall like burden like if you have a few laws there's more likelihood people will follow them once you actually put too
many laws it becomes such a spaghetti mess of what's going on that it actually doesn't do anything so there is a balance there somewhere right
yeah um i i think there's a balance i think it's and that's always i think the even the libertarian the pure libertarians sort
of battle it's always this and and i would say the socialist i think that you get this it's like a tug
of war and it's not that you necessarily would even want the you know epitome of what that philosophy would bring you
want to tug things a little more in your direction and keep that battle going
i think the development of the iphone really changed while it certainly changed how
people um how people acted and it certainly affected them psychologically
as well um but something that sort of was almost a corollary to that was the arab spring which happened in i
think it was 2011 or 2012. i can never remember the year maybe even slightly earlier
yeah maybe maybe in 2010-ish i remember being in an airport when i saw like the
when it sort of was all happening i was still living in greece at the time yeah um
but yeah so the arab spring was a big you know it was really the democratization of the people
and um like it uh it's it i think
what was a beautiful moment in history but i do think that it really uh sort of signaled to governments around the world
that um you know because a lot of western democracies did support a lot of the
movements in the arab spring but it was it was um i think it kind of woke them up to the idea of what could
be accomplished with these new technologies if it can happen there it can happen here exactly exactly yeah
yeah i think that that um i i think that what the arab spring did it really embodied what
a lot of people a lot of the sort of pioneers of the internet internet imagine that it could be which was
really a democratization of people people really speaking um with their
voices and sort of challenging authority but authority would see that and um oh for sure like i think it was amazing in
the sense and to your point i think i believe the part that terrified
governments around the world was that we saw and this is it's democracy in action
but it allowed those small what they felt were small marginalized voices
to coalesce and organize themselves in a military-like precision yeah they could actually rival
that which the nation state could now organize so we could meet at this particular square and have a rally oh they're
coming okay everybody let's go to the next location that didn't work okay everybody location three and you could
literally move your populace around like a roman failings yeah you know and just and how do you encounter it shoot
people like you know and if so then you have blood on your hands and you you've lost the battle if
you're the government at that point right yeah unless you fall totally into totalitarianism so that that was absolutely amazing
and uh it was so empowering i mean and we saw even like the you know how to what
degree and this is what we're going to get into a little later laws that are now being enacted to combat such
movements right yeah whether it's emergencies acts and trucker rallies or whatever these are still in essence the
same energy the small little guy saying i don't want to be like this anymore and i found other people like me
let's go to location xyz and show them in unison this is not what i want to do you're right yeah
yeah i i think that it was a real wake-up call and i think since then we've seen [Music]
a lot of the um we've just started to see an acceleration i you know again i don't
know if it's because of technology or because of um these kind of movements i don't know if it's because of technology or because
of the governance of the world's reaction to technology um but you can really see a lot of these things like um
one thing i've noticed recently is how free speech is really um almost used as a pejorative where you know people talk
about freedom right now it is it's incredible like i never thought that that would happen like i i
um neither did the founding fathers yeah or or even i mean you know because that i mean freedom is just like it's like
part of our bloopers like a part of our singing
yeah god it's so self-centered yeah it's it's incredible and it's incredible i mean you know you've talked
about mass formation before and sort of mass psychology where like seeing it in action and seeing
it's sort of laid out before you like that where the twisting of something as pure as freedom can be maligned uh it's
um couldn't be more orwellian it couldn't be and it's like beginning of turning into venezuela venezuela used to
be one of the richest countries in the world never mind latin america but coalescing around different ideologies led them to a completely
different path like you have to be very careful yeah and i think we get disparaging sometimes about other countries here in the west because oh
well that would never happen to us that's just the way the chinese culture is latin america it's always been a mess
no they're humans we're no better than them and what happened to them can certainly happen to us under the right conditions
yeah yep no i i would agree it requires vigilance
and uh you know um self-deprecation and you know being aware of hubris and just
just realizing like uh ultimate power corrupts ultimately and be very careful of uh
you know charismatic leaders that promise you everything um uh
but very bait and switch yeah you know the new normal build back better i was
pretty happy if the old normal and most of the world like if you were to judge by immigration was pretty happy with our
normal too because they were all knocking on the doors to move here yeah so if it's really that bad let's not
have academics tell us how bad it is why don't we look at the people around the world who are democratically with their feet voting to come here
yeah yeah i mean i guess there's something to the idea of always wanting to make
things better but it you know we've again we've talked about this before but uh maybe i'll stop saying
that because it feels like we we touch on the same themes a lot at the same time a lot of the time so um i'll just
remove that um that phrase from the equation but uh you get um
people sort of people because they're now you know on their phones all the time and so engrossed in the sort of the
drama of everyday uh living which is like being played out on various social medias all the time
um that that people are obsessing over this like um [Music]
obsessing over the small things and it becomes a case of diminishing returns where you know like we've talked about
before is um you have um people worrying more and more about
um almost fetishizing the um iniquities in in society as opposed to
um kind of zooming out a little bit and looking at looking at things more broadly and more you know taking into
account consideration the fact that like there are other places that are a lot worse technology has allowed us to zoom in on our own uh
our own self-portraits with such microscopic precision that we're uh so obsessed by um one something wrong on a
small portion of our face as opposed to panning back and just looking at the overall just that it's a beautiful thing yeah
you know and um and in that small context the the analysis
is correct but the problem is then it's like you're almost like walking blind well this is correct and this is correct and this is
correct without ever putting the pieces together and seeing the beauty of the giant you know you walk down manhattan and you just look at times square and
you got to say like my god like this really shouldn't exist you know think
about the the laws that are necessary the people the ecommerce the technology the building the uh architecture and yet
it it get it exists you know and we're gonna sit there and then like worry that you know well
really we need four divisions in our garbage recycling instead of three divisions this is a horrible society
right right and they could very well be right but pan back a little bit and look in context of what you're actually
critiquing yeah yeah yeah put it in context um you know i've
we use slack at my work as a messaging system and
i noticed this a while ago i think i've met i mentioned this before but i i think it was probably one of
these episodes so i'll mention it again but like how you know there was a time i just was i have to be
you know what you know like somebody will make a comment then people will give the thumbs up or whatever and you know there's different skin tones
for your thumbs up now right so there's various gradations of color you can make your your thumbs up on slack so
somebody's posting something about like hey this project was done blah blah blah and i noticed one time there's like three or four different
skin tone colors because sometimes you'll see it and you'll just click on the thing too and it's just like okay also thumbs up but people are taking the
time to think well you know that skin tone doesn't necessarily represent me so i'll do this skin tone and then it's like well this
one's a little off like i'm not actually that and it's like like they're just the people what people are dedicating their their brain power
to is so crazy my my whole thing and much to my um maybe my my wife's uh
you know she would disagree but i i really don't spend time or energy on things that don't really matter
because just if you want to get to this there's limited time unlimited energy so just really focus your mental horsepower
on things that are going to fundamentally change what you're doing in life and the color you can put my
whatever color you want for my thumbnail i thumbs up i am not going to spend time thinking about that
but maybe you would say maybe that is something that they would consider that matters to them and maybe because you're
white you know they are give me and you can give me a purple thumb like i know i know it's the energy that it represents
that is my main concern i'm supporting the person they're happy i'm happy we're all in you
know agreement here move on it works so i always i always go to the deeper like more like what is the
energy what is the deeper meaning here and that's what i'm focused on and really nothing superficial when i'm
sitting there for me personally you know when i'm looking if i were to judge my skin tone of a
thumbs up that it doesn't get much more superficial than that right yeah i i like i would agree but i think
that the argument would be made that you're saying that because you don't you know what though the truth of the matter
is it doesn't matter i don't think it matters for anybody who's like i i don't think there's like i don't think this is i think that people you know anyway like
i don't so i think what it is like we used to have yellow like yellow used to be the thing like why don't we just use
yellow you know what i mean like like use um like the simpsons and i think i think i
can't remember family personalizing things is nice i don't want to like disparage them yeah i can personalize something
um and it isn't like if my avatar all of a sudden had more uh features that were not uh the same as
mine from a different ethnic group i think okay that that really doesn't look like me yeah yeah but a thumb is more of
a symbol than a representation of where i'm supposed to be so i i chuck it in that sort of category
yeah i mean i just thought you know i can even understand you know if you're if you're black and you want to have a black thumb i get that but if you're
like like what is with the one-off like i i just i i just think it's kind of like just
too much thought like just when i looked at it at that time there was like three or four different thumbs i'm like is anyone even reading what the thing is
like is it just like you're spending more time thinking of the skin tone that you're going to use as opposed to the content of that in terms of prioritizing
too i've heard it said it may have been douglas murray while we were
well the enemy was amassing at the gates we were more concerned what gender are
they right right like really we have to prioritize things in life
you know if somebody wants to take the time to do that it you know it's their prerogative don't let me tell them what
to do but i'm simply not going to think about that too much yeah i i think it's not a priority and
it's not some form of privilege we're like well of course because everyone in your culture has the same color of thumb
now if i was in any other country in the world i simply wouldn't care and i would i hope the recipient of my thumbs up wouldn't be thinking about the color of
my thumb either right right there's greater issues
so yeah taking this taking this into context so we've got the um you know the creation of the iphone and the um the
arab spring and i think there were more events the whole trump um phenomenon was something else i think
really showed the power of social media through you know the hands of somebody
who like that his message was successfully conveyed and by message i mean
you know like that convoluted mess like like there was no coherence really to his
messaging at all and yet he was still um you know followed by so many um i i
kind of i think he was in the right place in the right time and i think there's a whole well of potential kind of wanted to latch onto something that
he kind of represented but was um i think he executed it pretty poorly but
uh he's also the protest vote yeah the protest and by being on twitter you're like the ultimate protester because
you're just simply not gonna go on cnn yeah which is like the legacy media right right yeah and he really and he
really did like for all and i don't even think it was his prestige i think it was just him like
you know i think he was just literally him on twitter and uh the fact that he was able to harness all that is was you
know whatev for whatever even the message that he was saying was that coherent he still managed to do it
so you got to give props to that like he was really could harness that he really harnessed that power and i think other people
sort of saw that and well think of the clintons for example like you know you take a look at that and be like that's
what we got beaten by how did we like i mean you know i i mean you think of their generic message but it's like
well i know hillary had to have like a pop star show up at rallies to get anyone because nobody wanted to actually hear hillary speak yeah you know which
speaks to hillary's blandness and trump like people might just show up because he's a car crash waiting to see what
weird thing he might do next but i have to admit even though i'm i'm not particularly i'm not a trump fan i
think um it's like it could be quite disastrous if he becomes president a second time
uh the uh the anarchist to me kind of enjoyed him winning for the first 15
minutes as i was watching it on tv wow we really saw
the voice of the average citizen now be represented by something perhaps the wrong thing but despite all the press
legacy media pushing one way it couldn't suppress the will of the people
right and that in itself was a very beautiful thing he might be the wrong
conduit for such a thing and you know after you get over your first 15 minutes like my god what have we done
but to your point earlier it's it's really in the hands of the citizen yeah and that kind of goes back to the
education system too like think deeply about your moves yeah the power of your vote yeah yeah
yeah um but so so yeah no i think that that's uh
you know if you look back at the 2010s especially it's just this such a interesting time like the things have
changed so much like we're just in such a different world now as we as we were in the 2000s men have babies
biology has changed um so yeah so but so
[Music] the whole point of this episode is that when we what we're seeing here is how the response to what is happening
technologically the governments of the world have reacted to this and we are seeing a
further um sort of amplification of what has been picked up in the past which is this kind
of encroachment on the rights and freedoms of of individual people sort of like
um you know entropy will persist nonetheless but like uh let's um
let's fight while we can and let's call out the things that we see starting to um
are really starting to become egregious polls in the wrong direction well like you know the like going back to the you
know trump got elected through this sort of really direct democratic process via getting his message out outside of the
realm of legacy media um you see the system push back
against such a move by creating new laws right to help prevent you know and that process will play out
differently in each country you know china for instance maybe much more heavy-handed arab countries slightly
different they might just turn that sort of uh thing off here you know we have a parliamentary process and they pass
bills and help kind of like in their idea help
reintroduce more regulation around free speech uh yeah so i don't know like are you
aware of um it passed a couple it actually passed a couple months ago bill 100 here in uh canada
um remind me yeah so bill 100 it was passed in a stealth vote overnight like you
actually ask the average person here and they don't know what it is and um it was basically aimed directly
at the trucker protest that we had in in retaliation let's say to the trucker protest to prevent further convoys and
it's it deals with like roadways public infrastructure and it is a broad and sweeping
legislation that is really the way it's written is open for very wide interpretation
um long story short with the bill 100 like police now may arrest individuals
who defy police demands um just for defying the demands to cease activities and can be fined up to a
hundred thousand dollars or one year in jail for each day they engage in a protest so was this can
you imagine like that's a really that's that's basically emergencies act type powers now
downloaded to the province outside of the province of the emergency
emergencies act yeah like that's 100 000 per day that's that's crazy like that's
um i so this is totalitarian at that price point yeah well who can afford that right yeah
so they might like of course you can go and protest you're just going to have to pay this bill right right like really
you're right i mean i used to hear something of the effect like in iran they're like of course you can leave the country you're just airfare out of the
country's one-year salary right it's really the same energy heavy-handed centralization of preventing the average
citizen from doing something against the state yeah you know yeah it's funny because you'll get people
trying to um sort of sugarcoat that to say like well you know be because nobody
wants to come off as completely totalitarian or completely like you just can't do this because then you know
people will then take that torch up and say like look what you're doing it's just like what uh you know the huns used
to do or whatever yeah but they will say like sure you can do whatever you want but like here are the caveats like your
head yeah yeah and one of the interesting features of this bill 100 too is like they can actually arrest you
before you commit a crime so that that really gets into some sort of uh
minority report sort of uh in what context if the officers think you might
for example block infrastructure you can be arrested you have not yet blocked infrastructure let's say you're
on the way are you on the way to ottawa or on the way to the ambassador bridge and you have a vehicle of a certain size
or weight or whatever you can you can be arrested if they think you may
do the crime is so is was this bill put together like is this this sounds like it grew
out of that emergency it came after after the trucker's protest yeah huh and it was voted in like one of those
midnight stealth move i think even certain mps were totally notified so they couldn't even vote against it
right that's quite something right so like nobody knows about this yeah yeah check it out ontario canada
bill 100. well that's and you know you get the next protest nobody knows about this so you have people like because if
you're in the moment and you're about to protest and the cop comes up and and you know you might even say like i haven't
done anything like i can stay it's my right to stand here and be like it's your right but you know your fines a hundred thousand dollars right a day
your rate costs you a hundred grand yeah yeah and if we think you might do something wrong well you know there's a one-year jail yeah yeah that's that's um
this is not the canada we grew up in so no it's definitely not right like this
is like and we're we're of age that we've lived on both sides of this uh change you know yeah really anybody
under 30. because if we're talking about changes that happen in the last 10 years the first two thirds of their life would have been in a completely different
context yeah what their freedoms meant freedom is messy yeah and i think we're getting to this sort of a puritan
centralization that like your freedom uh only exists as long as it doesn't hurt my right to you know and
insert whatever the other person's right is and therefore then freedom becomes in something juxtaposed to their needs or
wishes and therefore becomes like a weapon of sorts yeah yeah it's it's it's i don't know it's
really unfortunate and um uh infantilizing infantilizing yeah it's
just it's not cool um there's more um have you heard of the uh
what was called bill c 10 and it didn't make it through and it came back as bill c
11 and it's been passed i guess it was that extra digit that put it yeah yeah yeah
c10 yeah it's quite something you know and it you know here we are jason it directly
affects us as podcasters and any content creator in canada uh and uh basically what they're trying
to do is uh regulate the internet which is us broadcasting to the world
not necessarily just canadians that's the beauty of it like we're not we're not we talk about canadian subjects but they
are in global in thought and affect all humans if we're talking about diversity you know we're talking about you know
getting this message out to everybody on earth so so what does this what does this law do creating basically it's
going to have the uh inter all all canadian made internet content will be
subject to the same rules as television the crtc right it but you know the crtc was you know
there was a limited number of channels so you could see why they had to create
uh rules around that in its time and place the internet is so democratizing you don't need to have that anymore to
your point earlier and this is where i mean you know uh congruent and thought with you is like
let let the best ideas let the free market decide well so just uh for like our american or
other viewers or listeners um the um the crtc is the canadian radio and
television communication communication corporation doesn't be incorporated yeah but it's a governing body that tells you
know how much content for our american listeners and global like here in canada and a lot like our
netflix will have a different quantity of uh canadian content and less american
content let's say than netflix in the states so and just to put it in context because the crtc was beneficial in in in
the sense of for example i think of like canadian musicians like we're right beside the united states so we have
you know our overwhelmingly we get a lot of um like people crave sort of american
entertainment content especially brian adams can i listen i know so there's a lot of i guess yeah like um
a certain percentage of all the music radio stations play here must be from canadian artists or yeah
and there was a reason for that like it did help i mean you could i mean the internet has changed it all though the internet has changed it all yeah like
it may have had its time and place um i'm sure those in the industry can argue that but we're not in that time and
place anymore we're in the age of real like globalism information and yet they're trying to now regulate that
informational highway like legacy platforms like radio television so um
it's a very vague document okay but so if this is if if this is so wouldn't this be a benefit
to our for example our podcast because we're competing so that's basically saying okay spotify or whomever youtube
you you have to um play uh more you know 30 or whatever it is
canadian content sure but if our content is deemed let's say we only talk about what's happening
uh in the states all day long it won't it won't so what the idea is is
the government won't go after you and i but they'll go after youtube or whatever platform we're on
to de-prioritize us in our listings but wouldn't we be prioritized because we're canadian
no it's based on so we would have to have french english indigenous language content
you know like who's doing that right you have to talk about canadian content perhaps like you know things that are
pertinent to canada what if i don't want to talk about that i don't want to have my message so so so they're not
saying that so so they're not saying for example like youtube you have to play
30 canadian content full stop it's youtube you have to play stuff that has talks about canada it talks about the
indigenous yes the content matters too okay so it's not just where it's originating from it's the actual content
okay so that really is and they'll tell you we're not going after individual users but they'll go talk to youtube or
whatever platform to de-prioritize that which is not uh following the regulations and
it's written in such a vague way you're not going to really understand if you've even been de-prioritized until it's too late let's say
yeah well i think there's already like with all the algorithms you know um like
youtube and other companies like them are trying to you know make make money as they're a business as they should so
they're trying to get the content you know in principle anyway they're trying to get the content that is most relevant
to their viewers to them uh so that they can you know keep people watching let's say what we say is condemned not
truthful okay even talking about this bill c-11 may be deemed not truthful by
the government right so like a central authority like the government cannot be the single arbiter of the
truth i would agree with that right we we um there was an interesting quote i saw the
other day by dan rather and he was in in support of jon snow um what's his name snowden snowden
dan rather not or whatever i don't know if that's like a mike myers dan rather not yeah there's something he did anyway
hold on i'm gonna actually pull it up and i'm gonna do one of these moves because uh the quote was short punchy
and exactly to the point and i really didn't expect it from somebody like dan rather yeah he said
it's better to have it's better for the public to have too much information than none at all
that's amazing yeah right and that's coming from legacy media right right so now we're talking about the internet and so if i'm giving
somebody like too much information like you know that's for the end user to decide not for the government to step in and say well that's the truth that's not
the truth who the hell is the government to say what i'm saying is a true or not well i'm just trying i agree with you it's a governing body there's academics
around the world you know um scientists around the world and if one doctor says you need a knee replacement and
government says yes you need a knee replacement none of the doctor's like no you actually you can just get a rehabilitation is that going to be
considered like a misinformation because the government has said so it's
on it's this simply it reminds me of the inefficiencies of communism where simply a central governing body cannot be that
efficient and know everything at all times right but i am not i'm and i'm playing a
bit devil's advocate here because i know a bit about this bill but i don't know i think for the for the benefit of some of
our listeners i also want to get into the connection between like the bill itself sounds like it's
just regulating or it's it's um sort of
it's compelling digital service providers to to um
play a certain amount of canadian content but how who is the type of content matters right who is the quorum
though that is deciding what variant is i have no idea whoever the crtc is right
don't they look at the actual content and decide you know but wouldn't you have to get big enough to probably pop up on their radar
in order for that to be worth their time but just like china has an ideology canada has an ideology now and it's a
diversity inclusion equity ideology right and if we start to say something outside of that ideology
you'll be de-prioritized right you know it's it's it's unbelievable
well i wonder if it's a question of like it's prioritizing for example indigenous stuff but not necessarily
de-prioritizing things if you don't talk about it you're just not sure but the government cannot rule what isn't is and
is not information yeah i i i agree with that and i agree that they shouldn't be messing with like you know any really
the internet to me was the sort of last frontier of like here we finally have a place where you can be free and do what
you want and now things have certainly changed imagine if this sort of bill existed as you were saying earlier in
the arab spring context well that we're just going to have to do prioritize these messaging platforms because they are purveyors of
misinformation yeah said the government that was now on its way out because the people said enough of this right right like that's that's the
that's the gist of what can potentially happen of course you know i'm talking about things further on in the future but not
necessarily because how much misinformation did we see from the cbc and the government in parliament
regarding the emergency zack application for the truckers yeah complete misinformation right you know money's
coming from the states and uh the nazis and racists meanwhile i saw every shape size and color of person there
wonderfully participating their democratic right to protest and so the government's going to come
along and say well you know if you talk about that in a certain context or don't talk about it in a certain context we're
just going to de-prioritize you yeah i mean the document is written that vague they now have that power that that is
the problem i have with a lot of canadian laws um and i would single out canada here like i don't i don't know
enough about other laws in other countries um or even canadian law but like i just know playing poker for example online poker i
i used to play it all the time but it was like i wanted to not you know
have i wanted to make sure i was on the right side of the law like for various reasons like i'm taking money out and it's like
you know am i gonna get my money seized and um and i thought i tried to research it i think for the
life of me could not find anything black and white and you would go you could talk to a lawyer and they'd say the same thing and be like yeah like you you'd
probably be okay in some of these it's like always vague always like nothing concrete nothing like you can or you
can't do this so i think that there is a written purpose sometimes though yeah yeah instead of saying when you walk on the
sidewalk this is uh illegal it'd be like if you walk on the sidewalk okay like and that's where you get that that gray
zone right yeah you know you ever look at insurance policy and try to figure out if does this actually cover me if i get sick right like try to work your way
through there's so much greatness there in the end you just for me personally like you don't let power
determine information yeah power should not determine information people can decide and if
there's different academics and professionals that are you know getting a following then that that's the
democratic process playing out right in front of your eyes who is the power to step in and say this
is right and this is wrong and as we've seen with trudeau far too much here in canada he has no issue with interfering
whether it's the rcmp or the attorney general and all these sorts of nature so power can interfere
with actual truth right you know that's why so i think this podcast that we have that we're
starting and it's been fantastic and just the whole um underlying mechanism of what the
internet can provide is much more the spirit of what it can provide in the
best case scenario is that which is a deregulated open open market of ideas yeah
yeah and you you still but you and yet you still see that sort of strangulation happening where
you have like especially during covid like it was really pronounced where a lot of people were silenced and even
people who had you know science on their side they had um you know even people who were just asking questions about it
like would be silenced and um yeah it's it's a dangerous it's really a danger let me put it more like so i'm sure
people that are more on the left side of the spectrum will enjoy this sort of bill c-11 but let me ask them this if donald trump
had the ability to regulate the internet would they be happy right because you know just because it
happens to fall on your side of the philosophical leaning right you're then okay with such a law you have to imagine
if this sort of uh framework got into the hands of those who you disagree with right and then
realize it's not whether you agree with them or disagree with them is the issue it's the fact that it's the framework that you're erecting around you that is
the issue and if such framework falls into the hands of those that you just who are you disagree with
what do you do then and inevitably what it come what you do is you create a situation which empowers yourself the
individual and then let democracy take the form it wishes to take yeah you you would hope that would be
the template for a lot of people like it's always comes back to those first principles and um you know you you can't
be blinded by it by sort of ephemeral choices in
um you know whatever the current trend is to uh think of the gun law thing again
where it's like um you know you may not want a gun you may not want anybody to have a gun but keep in mind what you're
allowing is the government to take back some rights from some people that they used to have and
see how that will now sort of propagate to other places and just like you know
the just like the the the earth getting all the mountains getting ground down um you know you're getting this
homogenization where soon you know you're not left with all you're not left with very many options anymore
um and i know that a lot of people listen to this well it's a big stretch for like guns or whatever but it's like it's just an example right so it's uh
um anyway so okay so what do we what do we have there's so many new laws and this is the problem and they all tend to
trend in a singular direction right which is a direction around an ideology
set by the prevailing government and therefore through such ideology restricting any
means for the average citizen to go against such ideology yeah so
part these were the c11 and bill uh 100 are more like frameworky and then you
have the one like bill c what is it called again a bill c67 which is more about promoting the actual
ideology and the the thing with bill 67 is that it's trying to um
promote the absence of racism uh and that that's wonderful you know
there's who wants racism i certainly don't and i know you don't um the problem is that um
you know for instance like performance appraisals you know shall include competencies based on if it's
teaching a teacher's level of anti-racism awareness yeah
what comes back to the whole like crtc quorum thing like who are these people that are deciding what is
you know anti-racist like teachers must take anti-racism training right as if
you need to be trained to not hate somebody because of their skin color yeah like how how far are we going into
this oh and you know we could go down a hole i mean we did a whole podcast on uh
this kind of thing but it's like um yeah this it is one of the more insidious uh
things because the you can always look at the top level message and say well that's great who wouldn't who wouldn't
want to obliterate racism or whatever and it's like a you can't do that like there's always going to be racist
there's always going to be like people like we are still human beings we are um we're always going to have some bias
toward other people that don't look exactly like us and we can always be aware of it of course and train yourself
but when you get too much training it becomes ideological yeah and i think that really should be just boiled down to a simple you just
don't do things to people based on your skin color in a negative way yeah well i think that also the vast majority of
people don't like they might have little prejudices here and there but i think it's kind of like you know and this
passage is not just on skin color what neighborhood do you come from what yeah exactly you know what your education level kind of car do you drive yeah like
your highlights are terrible yeah like people people make judgment calls people are little [ __ ] yeah you always have
like there's always something that they're going to find tim hortons i have starbucks right right
if you want to get at it people will auto divide themselves and make judgment calls and all these little nuances all
the time yeah um and and none of them are good of course but what it really boils down to is a set of policies
radically left in their orientation and uh there will be punishment for the failure
to adopt the stance that's not open that's not democratic that's not organic
right and this is where i get like a more libertarian again like just just let people be you know you're
racism is not allowed we don't need equity we have equality
and we make sure that everything is dealt out in a equal opportunity sort of way and then let merit stand yeah you know
yeah it's um [Music] it's uh yeah i find i i find the whole
i really do find the the anti-racist stuff just appalling like um
it's there's something about it that is just so rotten in nature and i've had you know i've talked before about like this
like um you know in you know sometimes like i'll be in i've
had meetings or whatever where those kinds of things have popped up and it's just this it's so cringe inducing
because it's like it's coming usually from the people um
i have a real problem i think with people who are relatively pre privileged as it is like
talking about a whole subset of the pockets it's another way of talking down on people like i am anti-racist you're
not therefore you must be more racist than myself and this is just a way of self-grandeizing again oh yeah yeah
yeah i know um yeah it's very interesting because you hear andy racist the average person oh sure but there's there is a difference between anti-racism and non-racism
like they sound the same but they're actually they're actually quite opposite like non-racism means
uh non-racism which is the old way that you and i grew up with is that simply race does not matter
yeah you're human i'm human welcome to the team let's go um anti-racism insists that your race is
fundamentally important so being white means you are privileged and racist
right you by default if you take an anti-racist stance you are calling white people
racist well you're all wow that is also a racist dance like to take that because
you're being racist against like i mean you know because it doesn't take into consideration you know a plethora of other things like socioeconomic status
like not every white person is born into privilege and therefore not to be called a racist if you're a white person well then of course i'm anti-racist because i
don't want to be called out as a racist person right right because by definition you're saying if you you know this is what it is if i'm white i must be racist
so then i'm so behind anti-racism because i do not want to be called racist how about you just non-racist
right the old you know martin luther king judge a person by the content of their character you know it's just so
simple in thought and uh i really wonder what he would say if he was sitting here with us right now
it's i mean yeah it's a real uh seems like a real no-brainer no there's just um not to dwell on them too much but
there's also the infamous bill c-16 which uh is what made jordan peterson famous four or five years ago now
and you know the whole point of that one was for the first time in canadian history as far as i can tell it was a
compelled speech yeah like you're actually putting into legislation you must use these words
yeah yeah that was uh and that was uh mostly about um
yeah yeah okay and you know if again um i've have just like you friends of all shapes sizing
colors and sexes all our lives you know but um i just prefer you know a one-on-one sort of organic basis rather
than it being some sort of legislative thing you know what that reminds me of is um
and i told you this story before but um i'll tell it again because it's apropos but uh when i
when when i was um um when i was a kid in school i used to
play soccer a lot and um i would um i had this thing where i wanted people
to call me ace like i wanted that to be sort of my my nickname and it didn't it never really caught on i had like ace in
like firefox for whatever reason before the browser but um and i just went through phases of which one i liked better but the ace one was like
like people knew that i wanted to be called that but like nobody would call it just call me jason or whatever like were you offended or
yes it was um no but i i you know but what was funny is like in soccer when um you know
when i would have the ball you'll always be ace to me that's that's sweet yeah tear my eye
when i would have the ball in soccer they would be it would so they would sort of cue in to like if they wanted me to pass it to
them they'd be like like jason over here ace ace over your ace and and so it got it kind of got me thinking like and then
of course i would try and reinforce them positively by passing it if it you know the situation so when they needed you
they called you exactly exactly but it's sort of i always think of that when we start talking about like you know compelled
pronoun usage where it's like like does it matter what people are
calling you look i i mean it's a whole thing getting into that and
um i find i you know it's not that i don't understand that some people don't necessarily identify with
um you know the gender they were assigned at birth or whatever but we have to make things easier for society
to be able to like is it like there's an equilibrium to society
there's a sort of like established norm of doing things and i'm not about against change i just think the change
has to come organically and people if it's a good thing it will settle into society the way it should but
coming down top heavy through religious legislation just feels forced ideological
and uh fake yeah like i i agree completely with that like it really is all about or how
organically something evolves like if you have um you know and saying nothing about
like again you know the government kind of trying to force something down um people's throats uh but
i have no problem on a personal level if somebody comes up and they said i prefer to be called x i prefer to be called ace even you know it's like i'll i'll
probably call you ace or like if you want to be called um well not ace because that's my name but but if
somebody wants to be called um you know somebody it looks you know to me for all intents and purposes that they're um
a man and they want to be called a female or for example if they if they are um
uh they wish to be referred to as they them okay like i can give i can give them that on a personal level we should
all just be they sure we'll just make things yeah plural french you know a lot of languages have this the play plural
yeah yeah they didn't doubt they yeah and well that and that is sort of a good
when in doubt because more and more people are there's more of an androgynous look
these days to some people or at least i feel like sometimes more and more often i'm seeing people that i can't readily identify
that i'm like oh there it's a man or it's a woman it's like okay i'm not sure and then in that case say they are they an ace or not an ace jay you present as
an ace i will call you an ace um i think that the uh but i but i do think that you know on a
personal level if somebody does that i have no problem doing it i don't even care you know somebody new comes to uh
you know where i work or something and they're like human resources like you know this person prefers being called this it's like okay i don't have a
problem like i'll call them whatever they want to be called but don't tell me that i have to don't maybe even at work you're choosing to play
with their fantasy let's say their reality but um you don't want to be legislated into that choice
yeah exactly like it's like saying you know if somebody has sort of uh maybe somebody is like for example
maestro you know think of seinfeld you know that guy like to be called maestro it's like okay the guy's a conductor he likes to be called maestro we can call
him maestro but like when you're talking about him do you still refer to him as maestro he's like you know he's not if
you don't will be considered hate speech yeah or then you get somebody who's like a um i forget that quite something
well it's just you can it's it's a lot of it's like when when there's when two
ideologies kind of clash you really have to i think opt for the one that doesn't
compel people to do something you know good point um and why is that
because as little as possible we like we
shouldn't be compelling people like ultimately the freedom of the individual should be the default position
i think it's darwinism of social norms yeah like if it's if it's uh selected for as an advantageous trait we will
adopt it and keep it it shouldn't have to be like you know higher you know higher down powers telling us
this is what uh this is divine intelligence and uh i will uh intelligent design and i will
design your pronouns for you sort of thing right let it let it stick if it's meant to be it'll stick yeah and like there's
something to be said for like etiquette and for like you know like somebody wants to be called something else i might not agree with
you know like because it's you know there are biological realities despite what people will say right and if you're
not a woman and you want to be called a woman then i can even play ball with that but you
can't compel me to play ball with that because that becomes then destroyed to cut you off but i do feel like this is
my crux my issue is that if i present as a he him and i have a
gender masculine name and i in it we live in a society where that's considered a male thing you can probably
take a guess and if you're wrong i'll let you know why do i have to pro it's almost like a proclamation like i believe in this
ideology and i will also put my pronouns down it's not an ideology to me it's
just simply i'm a he him i thought there's standardized norms over thousands of years of what that looks
like in our society and take a shot at it and if you're wrong and i am wanting
a different pronoun i will let you know and you better be nice to me if not there may be repercussions right you
know sort of thing and that's that's just how people deal with things right but i don't i wouldn't want that person to have to be legislated into my pronoun
yeah like i also wouldn't want them to be like that you better call me he or him otherwise right you know like you
know they actually you're free to call me whatever you want i just may not like you yeah and then just move on yeah there's always needs to be a difference
and we've talked about this before where it's like um between sort of uh what's
required by law and what is sort of social etiquette yeah and uh as long as that kind of thing remains within the
realm of social etiquette then i don't really have a problem with it like i i might have some personal feelings about
it i might think of somebody a little bit differently because i might not agree with like how they're seeing the world or somebody
may argue just to be fair and take away but uh why why the need to put this into
law right does social etiquette not go far enough does it move too slowly um perhaps
but you know you can you can educate people without having to make a law yeah you can have biology class or you know
gender normative studies or whatever they call it these days you know and inform people
that's that's fine you know and of course tolerance should be you know widely
talked about and pushed you know you don't have to agree with somebody not to to to be still polite to them yeah you
know but you know to be the just funny i saw this thing there's some sort of meme like
uh we used to just uh call it how did it go um i identify as used to be just called i
pretend to be right yeah you know you know you might identify as
a different gender but there are chromosomes xxxy yeah and that is your biological assignment you know yeah you
know you might not like it but it is what it is like at the end of the day that's you can go over every transformative
um surgical intervention your genes will still be what you were given at birth
and yes there's sometimes some weird like xxy and that but that's such a small fraction of a fraction yeah the
vast vast vast majority fall into x x or x y yeah and like you know i think i think it's funny because you get into
this nebulous ground where like i think that people should be respected i think there are people like a lot of people
have like mental illnesses for example that are like they need to have um you know there needs to be some
tolerance for the way that other people sort of see the world and i'm not i'm not even necessarily talking about gender dysphoria i'm talking about like
anything like you know people who are schizophrenic like you know if you have somebody who's schizophrenic and they're
you know hearing voices and they're like you know but they're you know they're taking their medication everything but
they're still a little off you don't call out that or you don't you know you try to kind of like just
be kind to people and compassionate so it's like under all circumstances well you're not so sporty and nerd like
things like right why would you do that to anybody yeah just let them be who they are yeah you know yeah but but yeah
but then it does you know it's kind of like i always i always have this i don't know if you have this problem but like i i want to
be for example if i see homeless person on the street and um i see like we'll be
driving and you know uh my partner will will be like she's very you know like sympathetic and will be like oh like
that poor person and i'm like sometimes i'll see you and be like well they look like they're on drugs so i don't really feel that bad about it but it's like
it's like our default positions but it's but you know i think about it it's like how do i know they're they're how do i know that they aren't and of course you
know my girlfriend will say like well even if they are if i just shouldn't follow you i think a huge percentage of them do have like mental health issues
and that's why they do end up on the street yeah and and well the position also will be like you know uh my partner
i don't know if i should say her name because i just never really said i could so try not but like she'll say uh well
even if they're are on drugs that's that's an illness too and i'm like well no it's not like
so it's like it was afraid but uh but but you start getting into that thing so it's like okay well what
degree of compassion should i have for this well you pay your taxes right we live in a good country that you know
those um facilities for those people do exist through our taxation right yeah you know it may not be a
direct form of help no i i get what you're saying yeah that's uh i and i agree that's sort of the stance i mostly take that kind of
thing but it's like you know if i do see somebody and it's like i can sort of prove to myself uh that they're that
they're mentally ill i i can't help but feel more compassionate toward them right like
my father said once and he's like a tough nose sort of greek immigrant guy but he's a really soft guy too he's like if i ever win the lottery one day i'm
just going to ground to every homeless person on the street and give them a bottle of wine because let's not pretend
this is what you want [Music] you know and he's like he's like i like that it's it's kind of a cool way of
thinking he's like i'm just going to accept you as you are yeah and i'm just going to try to make you happy and you know and it may actually be hurting them
long term but he's not thinking about he's like today yeah today today he dines you know what i mean like that's i
mean i think it's just a really kind way of looking at something you know yeah uh but yeah i i'm i am with you i'm
unfortunate i feel like i don't give enough to homeless people on the street in general maybe it's an age thing now but i just feel like i feel worse for
not doing it i always feel like i don't want to be taken you know like i always shakey lady membership yeah shaky lady i
know this is a person for those of you while she would um well i don't know
a professional professional scam artist and uh she took a lot of people for a lot of money she was apparently living in a nice condo somewhere and i was like
i don't know i never i don't like that you know i don't know what percentage of people on the street are actually scam artists versus mentors yeah yeah yeah
yeah but i think you know there are there are certainly a lot of you know unfortunate people out there that are i feel like they were living in an age
where there should be some coordinated um effort i always thought this would be a great idea is like somebody you know
how they give at restaurants they'll give you that thing when your your dinner is ready they'll give you a thing and we're like oh go away to the bar this thing will start you know acting
like a ufo yeah yeah um if they had something like so they seem really cheap to manufacture is my is my
point is like they seem to be able to make a lot of these can't they make something for and almost distribute them at homeless shelters where it's like
somehow tied into some sort of account for them so that like if somebody wants to give them money via like uh interact
that they kind of do something like that i always thought if i was a bomb industry i have like a little qr code set up who's carrying change in those
days just tap no i know that's a problem a lot of the times right it's like you just don't have any like no it's
actually a real thing these days you know if they you know actually quite novel what i just have to tap my phone and feel good about myself you know and
you just help people tap tap tap as you walk down queen street yeah i i just need a bitcoin address it's just like
well there you go even deeper yeah i agree with you it's um it's it's it's probably always going to
be with us yeah that problem um anyway uh so that's a digression well
you know and going into this but we touched on it here there's another bill too called bill c-36 which uh
it's uh it's proposed but not passed yet but it's going in it's exactly we're talking before like your tweets can be considered hate speech
yeah like that so this is where it just really like do we really need to be like nanny state to that degree well so
so what is this one because that's so how is that even okay so this is this is a
i guess you could use that in somebody could accuse you of doing it and if you're a canadian citizen then you're like
you know i could accuse you it's like well dimitri tweeted this and i'm what what and like what if an absence of a
statement becomes hate speech like you know like you show your black square sort of vibe i didn't do it today
that's hate speech right you can really like this is this is there's no end to it really if you want to get into like
you know legal speak you can go almost anywhere with it yeah um the way they look at like
preventing hate is likely a justified infringement on free speech free expression yeah
i feel terrible i almost feel like i don't have anything meaningful to contribute to this debate because i'm just slack jawed at how
like i'm like really that's where we're at like you know legislating like you know um hate speech like what you know
it could because of course it con it's like first of all i think you should be able to say whatever you want like i don't i just don't think that that i i
don't think that they'll having you know i think again socially you you should obviously be careful you should be kind
and compassionate but i don't think ever the government should come into it and because you start to get into situations
that are subjective or are contextual what is a government it's just a ruling body they're supposed to also be the
arbiters of like what is a proper moral conduct right right it's quite coming from people you know coming from a
problem in the philippines or venezuela like the concept that you're giving the government whatever we might say we have
a good government today but it may not be a good government tomorrow but you're still offloading that responsibility to an ex like external
apparatus i just i think it's not um what makes a good society is strong
self-actualized independent citizens of which then they vote for small
governments that do precise and organized things right yeah not the other way around what do you think of uh
pierre polavere i don't know how do you say olivia yeah um i i don't know i always like prime ministers with the
name pierre i have a little [Laughter] uh what do i think i i hope he's the
real deal you never know anymore um yeah it's hard to know i i mean he he he
comes off as you know i know some people would say that he's this is all a show and this and that but he's a good cop
bad cop yeah like i think it's kind of like he saw a market almost to be like you know well bernier wasn't exactly
like lighting the world on fire with his and i think bernier frankly with a lot of his stuff is gone a little you know
what the biggest problem i have with maxine bernier is his bloody social media i think whoever whether it's him
doing it or he's just too far and he comes off as so disingenuous now and it's like i i was rooting for the guy at
the beginning and it's almost like obviously i'm against uh any climate change and 100 percent yeah
yes yes yeah yeah and it's just this like click bait stuff and it's just i i've really
been turned off by it uh but uh pure comes off while i listen to him on jordan peterson um and uh
a few other places and he comes off well i'm hoping i mean certainly he would you know i would vote for him in a heartbeat
against trudeau like it's a no-brainer but like um but i'm a classical liberal and i'm
experiencing political homelessness right you know if i were to prioritize our issues
uh at the moment it's uh all these regulations that we're getting into which is government encroaching on
you know the normal everyday existence to the point of what words you use yeah right
so for me this is like in top one two category of like defcon five we're in big trouble here right yeah so would i
like to see nurses paid more yes would i like to see the hospitals better funded and more better organized yes is that
number one two issue right now even a pandemic unfortunately for me no that means issue four or five down the
list i have another two three things so all of a sudden i'm feeling myself almost gamed into going more right wing
than i really feel comfortable with yeah because those issues are just taking more of the center stage to me
you know what's the point in having a perfectly run healthcare system if the city if the world if the country you
live in compels you to have speech no you if china had the most perfect
education healthcare system do you still want to live there i don't you know so therefore those things
matter more to me and i think they matter more for a healthy functioning society you can fix the other things healthcare and education
if you start to go down the road of compelled speech and giving uh tickets for in case you may
cause a crime where the hell are we going right so so for me i'm all ears now with
pierre going back to your point i hope he's a real deal what i love about him is that he actually stands there and will openly debate you on the spot and
he knows his stuff yeah right you may disagree but the other pierre used to do the same thing pier trudeau he would you
stop him on the street you debate him he would turn around and argue with you right right or wrong at least the man
knew his stuff believed in it and could articulate it to an extent that uh uh you at least fully understood the
amount of nuance in the direction they were going in and then you can decide as an individual whether it was for you or not
um so i hope is the real deal i've heard he's not part of the wef so that's kind of
like almost a de facto starting point for me these days unfortunately yeah you know but um the world economic forum is
a real thing like here's the thing with conspiracy theories they have a website they
openly tell you what they want to do and they are doing it so there's nothing really conspiratorial about that
corporations conspire all the time you know you are a chocolate factory and you wish to buy another company or we will
conspire until we take as hostile takeover this is the natural order of business on earth
you know and they're just i think they've almost done a very clever game they're just simply putting it out there in front of your eyes like the uh hide
it in plain sight sort of thing you know whether it goes into digital ids and things we get into later but
yeah um pierre i don't think he would exist if it
wasn't for maxine bernier meaning the energy that maxine bernie was able to create some what did it get
nine to eleven percent in the previous election yeah that's not a small number of people
and that helps that conversation which would be considered extreme right here in canada
now is being legitimized and being brought into one of the three main parties in canada
and who knows those ideas may become even considered center-ish in 10 to 15 years from now so you know that which
was once a left-wing idea becomes centrist right-wing idea can become centers your whole spectrum can shift all over the place like are you going to
tell me today that the liberals today aren't acting like the ndp of 25 years ago right like i don't even see a difference
really between the nbtp and liberals right you know so i'm happy for maxine coming onto the
scene and an offshoot of that branch of thought is pierre and at this moment pierre
um is her name lewis the other one that's running for leadership of the conservative party
the black woman i believe she's an attorney and then there's also yeah and you know she's and then there's also she's she's
very very very she's got great points and very articulate and feels like the real deal yeah and then you got um roman
babber and all three of them roman bomber roman babbers
considered in third place to be leader of the conservative party okay he was
part of the party and i believe he was kicked out and now he's running he did an independent thing he's always the one that's standing up in parliament still
telling people you know lockdowns are bad and everything else he's one of the few okay as an independent yeah so now
he's trying to become now leader of the conservative party but those three individuals luis babur and poliov are
all basically campaigning on defunding the cbc
wow yeah and then charade is saying we won't defund it but we will reform it so
you have this is showing you how much people are upset with the state media in canada in the
last two years due to covid yeah that you have um the top four candidates of the conservative party saying we need to
do something about information yeah and now you contrast that with trudeau and the liberal government creating all
these laws basically saying we're the only arbiters of truth either come to us or or it's all misinformation
we got we got quite something brewing here yeah you know yeah it's interesting and yeah
it's interesting even sheree is kind of like equivoc equivocating where it's like okay well we'll we'll maybe um you
know we'll rethink the whole cbc question but it's um uh it's funny you you when you contrast
that with like i guess the whole um you know andrew shearer aaron o'toole thing
the conservatives are like you know what we gotta think outside the box here because like maybe you know it's like be more authentic like
like or i don't know i just remember i just think of o'toole and shear and just the way there was such bland boring
like not like it's like you might as well have a bot they're the hillary clintons of canada and well except the massive corruption
but although who knows but uh but the um i corporate completely corporate yeah
yeah just like um i would just won't say anything did you see how many new um what would you call it memberships have
been taken up by the conservative party 600 000 new memberships oh really yeah and so
the reason is i i could get this wrong is it the members that vote on who becomes the to my knowledge right so
most people are saying they've those people signed up to make sure pierre police becomes the leader of the conservative party
600 000 people who actually want to put money down and sign up for to have a vote on who runs a party yeah is a huge
sum in a country of 37 million yeah right and i don't know what the membership i think they have a total of
675 000 so they you know what 12 times they increase their
memberships because of the to vote on this right that is showing the desperation
that so many canadians are feeling right now yeah that they don't have any representation right
on the on the federal level i think i still like i think the trucker's protest had a lot to do with this i i think the
the sentiments were all there but the truckers protests kind of catalyzed this to be like you know what we can change
things in every way yeah yeah oh yeah and then everything the government said about
them was a lie what the cbc said about them was a lie
and then people are online and that's why we have these new bills that we're talking about reading interesting things from intellectuals from different
universities and professors and journalists going okay let me decide for myself this is what it's all about
okay why have i never heard even a conversation let's say during covet about all you heard from the cbc during
kovitt was is the government doing enough right you never heard the cbc go should
they even be doing this yeah is this the right thing what science is behind us can we have a one-hour
conversation yeah so so you take that you take it into the truckers uh people are desperate for
more uh information quality information um and something that's so not
ideologically tied right yeah it's um i you know you really also
have to think the balls on trudeau like the on that whole government of being like i mean
we're right next to the united states we're right like who does like this is one thing if this is happening in some
third world like you know or even even a country like iran okay they're pretty isolated out there like they're they're
a pretty powerful company especially regionally and you know there's a lot of people in iran um so like
for them to come out with something like this you can almost see okay they have the sort of military might and the um
they can sort of control the men the message to some extent but we're right next to the us there's like all the
media we're getting all the same stuff you can't really like there's people going across the border all the time like like how do you think you can shut
down canada to such a degree unless the us is also sort of sucked into this whole thing but like if this if this
wasn't happening under biden and i don't think that you're not really seeing
i think like for all the sort of um mismanagement or incompetencies or
whatever you want to save the biden administration i don't think that you're seeing the dramatic shift to the left that we thought like i i sort of thought
things were going to be a lot worse saying well i mean americans i don't know it was like 16 or something
approval rating right but you're right um as a corporation biden didn't also become
what they were fearing uh usurped by the radical left right yeah yeah i think that that was the big fear and i mean
you know certainly you can look at the economy and and sort of roll your eyes but like um you know
but but i don't think like i don't understand where trudeau sort of thinks he's gonna get any kind of it was like it was like having the message you know
everybody else is starting to um you know get away with them stop with the vaccine mandates and everything and then
they're still going hard in the other direction like who did he think was going to support him you know like it's just a small country well it shows you
the echo chamber i think the liberals are in they think they have the ideological high ground right right and um they have the uh
audacity to tell us like we will morally we know the correct moral path and you will will legislate it yeah you know um
and uh quite frankly i think people have had enough of it it's completely fake you know and it
pains me to say that because i was a fan of his father's you know and it's just uh i don't mind if i disagree with
someone just don't lie to me and don't be fake yeah that's the key features i just can't believe he's won two
elections and i mean some of it speaks to the first one actually
because he beat sheer he beat o'toole and he beat harper yeah yeah you're right yeah
so like i can you know and i can see the first one where he beat harper in the sense of you know um i you know i can
see the popularity we've talked before about the population was looking for a change it was kind of like off of you know you had the obama thing and that
was kind of like almost riding that wave so i was like okay well i mean i never voted for him just always want to say
that but i'll never ask you but you can um but you can kind of see how he would have gotten it but then the second time
and then the third time i mean aside from having extremely weak uh candidates from the pcs it's like just
incredible that that it was more the pc's lost that i think and i'm not quite sure about this fact but at the 100 or
so 150 years of canada being a country like a huge percentage of those years we've been a
liberal country yeah that's so just by the sheer roll of the dice you're going to get a little and the brand the brand the
branding of the liberal party what would you think of his haircut have you seen his haircut oh yeah yeah yeah um
yeah what is that it's quite something different yeah it's not badly done i'll critique it but it's
way too short and what i find really funny though from a hairdresser's like perspective sort of thing
is uh everybody was saying he looks just like jim carrey and dumb and dumber and it is
quite pretty much the same haircut but it's also the same haircut russell crowe had in gladiator
right right but nobody seemed to put trudeau into the gladiator category everybody unanimously kind of went the
dumb and dumber route technically it's the same haircut yeah so i think that kind of shows like if if the
conservatives can put together uh a strong platform that feels
you know i think we're on the verge of a bit of a revolution here i think woke has overplayed their hand in the last
three four five years and quite frankly people have had it yeah yeah
yeah i've noticed the the wind shifting as well thank god like do you want a digital id
did anybody ask me i think the digital id thing goes beyond woke i don't think that that i mean the woke thing i look at yeah but it
goes with the climate change and to do the right thing for the world and we're going to put down a heavy bureaucratic
system around it i would say those are different because i would say that there's i well okay so i first of all vocism is
absurd aren't they both leftist though well they are both leftist and if this is centralized
yes okay but i'm not well i'm not saying i'm just distinguishing between the two so like i think that vocalism i more has
to do with identity politics to me okay and like you know um this anti-racism and stuff like that sure whereas i think
the the idea of sort of centralized digital ids is a much more serious um danger like i i think
that vocalism is almost laughable like i never thought it would last like i always thought okay someone eventually people are going to get tired of this i
see your point one is exceedingly permanent in nature digital ids or something and that kind of
you throw technology into it and you see that um like that is something that will
has a momentum of its own and if it keeps catching on uh it will will go further and i see
less resistance to that like i see every morning what if you turn it on every morning and it tells you can you
please confirm your pronouns for today that you've combined the two oh i wouldn't be surprised and it will automatically auto populate all your
contacts with your newest update of your pronouns yeah yeah um i honestly think if we're talking you
know 50 years in the future even i don't think it's going to be anything i think we're going to be living in a completely
different world i think what does that world look like jason it looks like a lot of ai i think there's different
ways it can go i think it could be a dystopia or a utopia but i think you ai is going to be much more prominent i
think we're going to have significant challenges with um our physical environment like i think
there's going to be a lot of modifications and changing with how you know sort of the world is living i think uh you know our energy
how we're consuming energy is going to be changed but i think ai is going to be the biggest thing i think ai is going to
be the most important and significant um challenge that we deal with in this
century and possibly beyond um i i think it's going to pale in comparison all these other things we're
talking about because i just i don't see how and what if we lose our ability to
generate electricity there goes your ai like it's really it's interesting how
it's all really tied together yeah you have electric vehicles god if there's a brown out at least if gasoline you have redundancy gas from this country from
that country you know there's you know countries we forget in the western world many countries have brown outs all the time
imagine you're relying on ai and then also you have a brownout yeah i think that right now for example what's happening in the u.s like i i do
think there's there needs to be a realignment of how people are using um like natural gas like i think that
um the u.s was too quick to start shutting certain things down um
i like i i do believe in global warming i think that i think that i think that climate
change is something that needs to be addressed primarily by industry and i think that there are significant changes that we
see in industry but i think that i think it is important but i think that i think that it will be solved i think
that there will be something like there's always um you know whether that's with ai or not with ai i think
that that challenge will be um resolved i think that the um the biggest concern
i think we as a society have to look at the number the most important thing i
think that we have right now as a society to address is this question of
how are we going to [Music] ethically speaking or like um
yeah i guess ethically speaking or as a society how much role do we want technology to
have in our lives like how much and how much yeah yeah who are going to be who are going to who is i think this is where
you're going is who are going to be the people who are deciding on who creates the algorithm who creates algorithms yep
who what kind of things are going to be in the algorithm how are we is this just private industry we're going to let them deal with it you're right like we have
the we're laying the ground to the infrastructure of this right now and just like in our covet episode i was just like absolutely uh
petrified of the the scaffolding that we're building around us with the qr code system to go
into our restaurant yeah and now have you are you familiar with the arrivedcan app and stuff like that um you tell me
about it yeah well we're the only country on earth canada that requires everybody
and that means canadians and foreign nationals uh is that what the correct word for
nationals yeah so um to have to download this app in order to
gain entry to the country your passport and your let's say qr vaccine
certificate on paper are not accepted that's crazy
what on earth has all of a sudden developed to say that my freaking passport is not valid enough
to be considered welcome home to canada and you're not going to pay a fine as you come into the country
is it if i don't download the app it's a five thousand dollar fine so you as a canadian you can gain entry to the
country but you're gonna have to pay the fine what is never mind okay we can get into
whether it's justified in health benefits or not but the fact is that we're the only country in the world
doing this are we are we smarter than all the other countries or we just have again going back to
these new rules that we're creating here in canada simply being a very close kissing cousin to
china in terms of our totalitarian grid-like approach to like restricting human movement and thought
and words that we can speak to the point you can't even return to your own country without downloading an app
yeah and you tried to explain to a border agent it's the rules i'm following the quarantine act you just have to do it why don't you just want to
do it and most people will sit there and simply stutter like why wouldn't i do it i have another 600 laps on my phone this
will just make it easier and uh you have to think like you were
saying long long term what kind of country are you developing yeah what has all of a sudden invalidated your
passport if that qr code you got it from the doctor which i don't even know why somebody needs to be vaccinated to get
an airplane now where you can sit inside a hot arena of 21 000 people and they can all be unvaccinated
right but no we still need to have this app in order to come into the country whether you're vaccinated or not
so yeah like um we are now an outlier
amongst countries where the only country is requiring an app to come into the country hawaii what
are the health benefits what is the security benefits can someone please explain it to me and it was just in the
news two days ago that the app has been actually found to violating or at least they're looking into it lawyers and whatnot
for violating your privacy it's tracking you precisely what the government said it wasn't doing
um which i knew for sure from some weird instinct and just looking at all these laws you don't need to see once a
javelin is thrown in the air you can kind of see where it's going to land approximately right and the javelin is up in the air and it's moving in a
certain direction you can see where it's going you simply start to connect the dots with the leadership we have in the country the
type of laws that are being enacted the direction in which they're going the velocity at which they're going and you can simply start to make pretty darn
good educated guesses what is the if you can tell what the end goal is
when the new mechanisms are put into play you know they're they're heading towards that direction right you know
so so i i it's it's for that instance and going to your what the future holds an ai
yeah i see that being wrapped into well of course we've had a night as canadians we know uh we tried to keep
the country safe as canadians on and on and on about why this app will keep you safe and why you need a digital id and
you need to have a million boosters none of it based in science what is that what does arrive can do
like what does it do so you're entering like for example if i download the app i what put in my name and address yeah i
haven't done it yet but you put your name your address your vaccine certificates when you did it last um what's your quarantine protocol in case
you test positive because there's random testing things of that nature and then uh off you go
uh i've heard i've read that it's uh it slows down processing by 400 percent and
we know what state the airports are in right now right um of course if you and i were downloading it i'm sure we'd be
one of the ones that get through it really quickly a lot of people say they have no issue with it all but it's only in four languages and when you're
accepting people from around the world not everybody's going to know how to answer this if you're a family in a minivan crossing the bridge from detroit
into windsor and you're told as an american family you can't come in unless you download this app and you're stuck in line you're going to be slowing and
what is the benefit of that what is the health benefit well you know i it's still remarkable
with kobe like what you know the cat is out of the bag like let it like where are you even bothering to track
anything anymore everybody has it you know what i mean do you know if you're unvaccinated now and you return from abroad on a vacation
finally in canada the unvaccinated can get on an airplane it just happened about a month ago the the liberal
government was twisting and turning every which way not to allow it to happen it was the conservatives that kept drilling them going again you're an
outlier amongst countries every other country is allowing unvaccinated people on airplanes except canada yeah and it's the only country
for the digital id that requires you in order to get on an airplane they arrive can app and uh yes as you're returning and a
person is unvaccinated though has to do things a vaccinated person does not have to do they have to have a pcr test
before they get on the airplane a pcr test when they get off the airplane then they have to quarantine for 14 days
despite having two negative tests and when they come up to you in the airport to do that test they come up in a giant hazmat suit as if you're some
specimen off of the krypton you know and guess what that 17 an hour person
that's sticking the thing up your nose is going to go home on the go train later tonight or go into arena and be around a ton of unvaccinated people but
it's all performance theater and they're going to walk up to you in that giant hazmat suit to freak the hell out of you
yeah how is that science how is that health i am not anti-mandate but the mandates have to match the threshold of
the disease we're dealing with and the efficacy of the mitigation tactics we're using in this case vaccines
right and it doesn't so so the game to me is they're just othering other people making your life difficult
trying their darnedest not even allow unvaccinated people on an airplane and even about a month ago or so around that
time uh trudeau was saying well we're not gonna force people to be vaccinated
but there will be consequences dude it's 2022. you know it's not march
2020. where are you going you are a psychopath [Laughter]
well you just prioritize this podcast right ago yeah go viral or go home i i it's just it's i
mean this at the bottom of my heart it makes no sense scientifically it's vindictive and i only see it as trying
to create the uh mass formation around well the digital id's the can app the
vaccinations allowed us to get back to our normal life bullcrap
full stop yeah and i can and i won't it's not the nature of this episode i can ream on scientific studies out there
that you know you really don't need to continually keep i won't even go far but continually keep vaccinating everybody
gets through it's 2022. we're dealing with omicron not delta or alpha what do you think though is the motivation um
for like why because even trudeau must have some inkling that there's no way that
his administration is going to continue indefinitely into the future so like what is he setting the stage for like
you know what i mean uh well you know he's got that unholy alliance now with the ndp out of nowhere they just sort of
created one mega party right what are the np the ndp get out of this can i please see jagmeet singh sit down on cbc
and have a one hour interview why did you do this why did you agree to this and what are you trying to get out of
this simply because you want to have a national dental health care plan that's it that's what you're doing like really
yeah and it's under these the we call it this sort of merger that they allow bills like c11 to pass without
anyone even knowing about it which one is c11 again the one that um uh right dealing with the uh how we uh
the crtc regulating the internet okay so while he's created this makeup party they're pushing through these
bills rapid fire to really create a whole new canada in the maybe like you said limited time they still have yeah
and then to your point about a couple of minutes ago will pierre poliev actually pull the bill uh pull the plug on these bills
yeah if he were to become prime minister because if he doesn't then he's exposed but and and
yeah if he did well if he and but it would be almost who is in his interest to not pull it because you know he'll
benefit to some power against these things yes it's that's why you got to be careful of the matrix that you're building yeah yeah no it's uh it's true
because he's gonna have to look at his caucus at that point and go well guys i'm gonna get rid of this and it's actually gonna make our job harder right
yeah right and maybe that's the nature maybe the government's job should be harder to a degree
and that's why we have to vote for things that limit government in these cases yeah like democracy isn't easy
like you know it's um a lot easier to uh push laws through if you've got um
you know um [Music] you know if you're if you if you're hitler or stalin you
know what i mean it's like they didn't have any real problem with it they would just be like well this is just the way it is now and everyone's like
like yes mind fewer you know yeah yeah they would probably say democracy is a hindrance to
uh good governance but um in that case it would have just been hamak democracy was a hindrance to
governance whether it was good or not you know they didn't really care what what did
stalin say if one person dies is a tragedy if a million people die it's a statistic right yeah that kind of nature of things
so yeah like moving off of stalin though and on to uh
current versions of the same issues do you know about the appointment of a
professor susan michie do you ever heard of this lady
um i know well apparently she's an academic expert
in the twin sciences of nudging and uh behavioral insights
wonderful suspicious yeah uh yeah and between yeah so between nudging people behavior insights and the
second part being public health so it's very much like a collectivist solutions and uh she's a long-standing
member of the communist party wonderful we're sorry so she was appointed so that me yeah okay she's now
going to be chair of the world health organization committee that is specifically tasked
uh with bringing nudge theory into national health programs nudge theory oh okay the idea
of like chorusing people like of course you would want the vaccine everybody's getting it that kind of only good people
do it yeah all the behavioral mechanisms involved and she's a communist well i would say
one thing though about this like so issue i think though like any because i want to make sure
that we're consistent and that um [Music] and or i should say just in general
people should try to be consistent in terms of like i hate it when you see um the left try to malign somebody on the
right for just one instance like they'll find some little quote of george of course so i want to be like communist
what when she was like 19 or no she still is her whole life unabashedly well although by all means let the uh yeah
and the sparks fly but i completely understand what you're saying because uh uh
you know throwing somebody under the bus for like uh having a belief that is not in line with what i have is not what i'm
all about but when that person joins in this capacity the world health
organization which is supposed to not be a political organization um
these officials are not elected you know it's supposed to be a technical body right but if you're going to go in there
if that kind of using behavioral nudging with your own personal bias towards
centralized mechanisms of controlling the populace
it really speaks to the lack of respect to the individual right
and that really bothers me yeah yeah you know um the end goal it's not the
goal to bother me it's the means in which you're getting people there yeah and i and and don't get me wrong i do
think also that people should be held responsible for their views if people are communist that's
they they certainly have a right to their own belief but you can't then distance yourself from you know i would
have a problem with somebody in certain aspects of public policy maybe like this one and um because
i don't think a communist worldview is consistent well communist worldview is not consistent with mine so
um you know i would naturally object to that and i think most people would in or
it's not a communist plot or like i hate this like conspiracy theory
but um what it is is taking a world view of how how a society should operate and
removing it from normal democratic conversation right you know it's really it's really
her worldview actually works to her advantage in being involved with
something like the world health organization who's like this is what you're going to do right and define health health these
days is it's it's expanding is it economic health social health racial equity
health uh viral and their bodily health like you really it's so ambiguous
you can go anywhere now with this sort of uh ever-growing apparatus let's call it
around us which will only completely be any any communists uh wet dream right
it's literally like you're using the most benign of things to in order to enact political change globally right
which is like what you're against good health you know yeah
yeah it's um it's scary where we're going um i think that it becomes scarier i i keep
bringing ai into this but i think it becomes scarier when some of this stuff starts to take hold and i think we're heading into a time
and i'm sure there's been plenty of generations that have said this about
different things but i do think that the age we're going into is going to be different than any other because once
you start to get ai um doing the job of thinking for us in many
ways and sort of building upon that um you know when when it's not humans who
are designing anything anymore but it's we're only designing the designers
uh then i think we get to a different level that um becomes more difficult to
like some of these some of these totalitarian instincts become harder to or
initiatives become harder to check once you get to the threshold of you know ai well how can you possibly
have a uh like like you said the emergence of ai being
all dominating in our lives moving forward how how can that be anything other than the centralization of everything
right does this empower the individual does it argument the individual to be more independent
yeah it doesn't seem like it would ever go in that direction it's going to look at least the way it's programmed and the
way it's been developing more towards a collective good right you know through through this
mechanism rather than just like you as an individual should make the right choices and you as individuals make the right choices and anything collectively
through our individual independent choices yeah we have a good collective result and yeah and i think that it's important
to have conversations like this and but it's also important to you know sort of spread the word and vote with
our you know vote with these things in mind well sort of while we still can i again it's
against the irresistible force of entropy right like we want to make sure that we're the mountains you know i
almost have no apps on my phone and people like well why did you buy a small farm for smart phone for i'm like
well i've got a camera i got a gps you know i have email is pretty amazing i can text anybody in the world
immediately what do you mean i have no apps like how many apps do i actually have i want to use facebook i do it on a browser and
load it up with all the uh ad blockers and everything i can and guess what i'm not against first party tracking
it's third and fourth and fifth party tracking that drives me bonkers you know so what about you know you get into freedom of movement and stuff like that
what if you just don't have a uh uh mobile phone like you can't leave the country anymore well if you're traveling
with someone else you're supposed to be able to put it on their phone i see but it's still digital
so what happens if you're of a religious group that you you know for example like uh what is it like yeah mennonites or
whoever doesn't like use technology um i love that they're well i love that they're only gonna be
the ones they're like yeah we're the only ones left standing man you guys all killed on yourselves
um no but like i mean you have maybe you have three of them they want to go you know party up in vegas or whatever so
they're coming back and they can't get into the country is it not a human rights issue yeah i believe it is it really is
we are we are forcing segregation through digital means you know and it's it's uh
it's sold as convenient and helping safeguard canadians
but i don't find it particularly convenient and i don't see any safety involved i just see digital
digital handcuffs if you want to call it yeah yeah i i um anyway i i i it's
this this is this is just the beginning in many ways and i i really think we need to sort of fight while we still can
um and then you know it's weird seeing canada as one of the the biggest problems uh you know like uh
um maybe that's how they catch us yeah a country at least expect it you know we
have public health here that we grew up loving and trusting but since 1994 it's
been predominantly funded by pharmaceutical companies yeah but that trust was built up you know the cbc
which is the canadian broadcasting company our state media here we grew up as canadians really trusting it and then
if you can actually then take the thing that we trust most and then you know the country that's famous for saying
sorry yeah and then so it's almost like the perfect uh what would you call it uh
when you say yeah where you present one face but underneath it's completely the opposite right yeah you know because you don't
see it coming yeah that's something you would expect out of a russia or a china or even a germany
you know or austria but not out of a canada and it makes it like the perfect uh
um oh yeah okay the word escapes me but uh i know i know what you mean but i can't think of it yeah yeah um you know wolf
in chief clothing you can say for example but but i don't know there is a word that encapsulates it but anyway um
yeah i think that that's uh anyway it's all very interesting this is just the beginning i think that um uh we'll
see a lot more of this and we'll have to have more conversations like this um i think we you know this is what the 40th
time we've recorded this so like i am you know i just wanted to again say to everybody thank you for listening
um we're going to wrap that up for today um and also um
uh please spread the word if you like this and send us feedback if you're so inclined we would like to get
we do have some initiatives sort of in the works to get our conversation going a little more bilaterally
with our audience but in the meantime shoot us an email or reach out to us on facebook and you know
tell your friends if you like this podcast so they can listen too and we can get more people listening and
spread the word as they say uh and on that anything uh anything you want to say final there
dimitri not at all i think it's um it's uh conversations like this and just working
through it i find you know as we what i really enjoyed is um you know we're both having a lot of counterpoints
to our points as we're trying to assess uh what is the right way through it's not an easy course to chart yeah you
know yeah yeah so um on that note um
everybody have a good night and take care out there
so [Applause] [Music]
you