06 - Three Men and an Abortion Dialogue

0:00

Hello.

Welcome to intimate discourse, my name is Jason.

This episode three men and an abortion dialogue was recorded on May 15 20 22, just after the leaked US Supreme Court, draft opinion, regarding a challenge of Roe versus Wade.

0:20

This route was recorded prior to the actual overturning of Roe versus Wade for context.

It was recorded in Toronto.

Ontario Canada.

Hope you enjoy the show and thank you for listening.

0:50

Welcome to the show folks.

My name is Jason here with Dimitri.

We are also here with guest today is our first episode with a guest, it is Marvin.

Today, we're going to be talking about abortion and issues peripheral to that and and just sort of see how it goes or where it goes.

1:12

This is a field that just speaking personally.

Like I've personally never had one but I It's just a it's a topic I've never been that passionate about one way or the other, which sounds strange because it seems like both sides of this issue especially in America are quite passionate about it.

1:34

One way or the other.

You have certainly the pro-lifers and the pro-choicers these have strong opinions about the matter and they are both, you know, make good points and Each side for me, it's just been something.

1:52

I've just been distance from because I've thankfully, I guess never been in a position where I've had to choose one way or the other, and my own feelings about it certainly.

And in terms of how those feelings should translate into law, has always been something.

2:13

I've just sort of stayed away from but do have some opinions on it, especially after researching this episode and sort of I don't know, thinking about it in a more formal kind of way we.

So this was pointed out to me before we did this show.

2:30

That there are three white man that are actually doing this, although I guess the raishin matter but it is 33.

I feel like I always have to have that all these days.

Yeah, I'm sure in some, in some contexts that does.

But, yeah, so 33 people with penises in any case, at least I assume.

2:49

So, Yeah, we, you know, I was pointed out to me that this is maybe, you know, you always have a woman's perspective on here.

And why is this, you know, and I think, just aside from the fact that, you know, is kind of quick trying to get these shows together and, you know, have to know, somebody will know what their position is and then try to integrate them into the show.

3:15

That's a whole, just a logistics thing.

But just to address that because I hear that a lot these days were There is this idea that because you don't belong to some kind of demographic, whether it's being a woman speaking about abortion or being a minority speaking about, you know, racism or a you know a trans person.

3:39

Speaking about trans issues.

Like there seems to have been this trend that almost seems to be getting worse where there's a failure to recognize that humans.

Are capable of sort of obstructing themselves from the subjective and can actually talk about something in a, you know, in a way that relies on things other than just, you know, the intimate personal experience like, you know, there's limits like I'm not going, we're not going to sit here and start talking about, you know, the you know, the paint, the paint the pregnancy the pain of pregnancy.

4:10

Isn't that bad or anything like that?

Like you know there's certain things that you can't you know.

I can't speak about my life as a young Jewish boy or a light.

You know what I mean, there are certainly areas that are more relevant in hearing from somebody who has had the personal experience, but you're speaking about issues that we're human beings with the ability to empathize, we have the ability to speak about something using logic and using kind of comparative analysis and, you know, in any case, I don't feel any, you know, I don't feel that there's any problem with the way that going about this, you know, it would be happy to have a woman on, but let's just, let's see how this episode goes and We can, we can take it from there and importantly, it wasn't by choice that we don't know.

5:05

Woman on, just sort of happened to be like that, right?

It's like, we had 10 people, interviewing for this spot.

It was like, well, pick the one, man, that interviewed.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you know, it's it's about diversity of opinion to so we usually yes, chef women, but men and trans like everybody's should have something to say about this and perhaps more on the women's side but everybody has a point to make.

5:26

Yeah.

And I think that's also important.

Not sure in what context you meant it.

But like, in terms of diversity of opinion, I think that that is important, but it's not necessarily.

It doesn't necessarily mean that it's important to have, you know, you're not necessarily married to the demographic that you're, you know, just because you're a woman, doesn't mean you're pro-choice.

5:43

Like this will probably plenty of pro-life women, but, you know, I think Marvin here has an opinion that I know just from chats with him before diverges from mine and actually Dimitri, I don't know what your personal opinion isn't doesn't work.

I can forward to hearing it.

6:00

Yeah too deeply about it cause it's just been sort of the fabric of life.

It just always been around.

Yeah yeah.

It's a different issue in Canada.

I think it never giant Landmark legal cases from therefore we have precedent to just sort of was the way of being, you know.

Yeah.

So this is where it was.

6:19

First of all Marvin you want to say hi?

And hello.

I'm Marvin - Marvin.

All right?

So the this you know, we're doing this episode in the wake of a draft opinion that was leaked from the Supreme Court recently, which is Justice, Alito did up.

6:48

And the understanding is that this is going to turn into a overturning of the you know, sort of Dairy, Roe versus Wade decision back in like 1973 or somewhere in the 70s.

7:05

I remember growing up, always here in Roe versus Wade, sort of throwing around in politics, like they're going to overturn Roe versus Wade if they get in and it's like oh now it's it's actually happening strange.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Summarize it for the young folks who might not know that is the Roe versus Wade.

Yes.

7:21

Roe versus Wade.

No, I cannot Roe versus Wade is just and you know, I I will preface it with saying like I don't I'm certainly not a legal expert, but I my understanding of it is it.

7:37

Well then the Roe versus Wade over turns the states, right?

To make decisions on how when women can have abortions or whether they can have abortions or not.

So like, you know I think this this draft opinion came about through the It was a law in Mississippi that was being challenged and it came before The Supreme Court because in Mississippi they ban abortions after 15 weeks.

8:07

And what I understand to be happening is that we have a group that was attempting to argue that because they're trying to argue that abortion was a fundamental right of people.

8:25

And it's sort of enshrined in the Constitution and That that decision got all the way to the Supreme Court and now they're reviewing it.

And they're looking at what it actually means to be.

What, you know, whether that is something that was constitutionally valid where it's like, can you, you know, is this something that people have the right to have an abortion and basically the draft opinion is that, no, it's not covered by it and by that logic, it's then you know, the overturning In a row versus Wade is like, well, yeah, State should be able to make laws on on whether they want to allow, or disallow abortions.

9:06

Because it's not a federal issue.

At least that's what that's my understanding of it.

So and this is brought about like a lot of, you know, fewer.

I think that it's such a the idea of because of course it's always portrayed in the media and with politicians, it's always a very polarizing.

9:28

It's like, well, it's either you believe in the right to the sanctity of life or you believe in you know the government not having autonomy over your body.

So you do get pretty too sharp sides to this issue and it's a great kind of political Firestorm that it can create just because of its, you know, it's been so pumped up over the years and I ask you why is this coming up now?

9:54

What is fundamentally happened?

Like why what what was the impetus to bring this up?

Now so I think that the I don't know how often this kind of thing generally happens.

Like that laws are challenged like abortion laws are challenged.

It may just be the fact that we now have a conservative Supreme Court.

10:14

So it seems that maybe now the draft opinion makes sense to try to overturn it and just seems strange go.

So UK.

So you have more spy saying that yet.

There's more Supreme Court judges that are Republican than Democrat.

Yeah.

10:30

So but then you still have to get like, well, almost like 100% sent, consensus amongst them, that they don't want abortion laws.

I, you know, like yeah strange because it's so think there'd be some, you know, it's not like a universal.

You Republican, you absolutely believe this, right?

It's for sure.

10:46

And what's the ratio?

There's 12 judges in the state's, wonder, how many are there AM 99?

Yeah, right.

So then what you're going to like a five to four ratio and they all five have to like I guess just seems a little weird to me.

Well, I mean the the way the jury Jury rigging of all this, you know, it's interesting because the the judicial branch of government in the States has been the one branch that I would say, has been sort of, for the most part in relatively speaking, not as subject to Politics, as the other ones by any stretch of the imagination.

11:21

Like a lot of these guys, you know, Trump appointed Gorsuch and Barrett cabin on Barrett and then you have, you know, the I think both of them are at least two of the three voted against.

You know when he's bringing all the challenges during the election they were basically wouldn't even hear it.

11:41

Like it was it was so sort of outlandish and sort of beneath the Dignity of the court, I guess to hear it.

So and there's been other.

There's been a few other issues that have been pretty big issues that the court has voted in favor, like their traditional, right?

In court or the current right-leaning court is now, you know, kind of tilted left on a couple of issues that were, which we were surprising.

12:06

I think, to a lot of people on the right.

So it's not like they're it's not like this is like biased and it's like well it's a republican-leaning core.

So now let's just start pushing out everything and it's going to every time five to four or five to four but that might be one of the reasons why this became, you know why this draft opinions being created.

12:25

And, you know, No, it's hard to timing.

Does seem a little bit odd because they're predicting the in the midterms, the Democrats are going to get killed and just this is one of those issues that rallies the voters, you know?

Yeah.

It's people on the streets.

It gets them into the voting booth.

So yeah, conspiracy theory.

12:41

But well, you can see that, but I would also argue.

And I've heard this argument made, I think it was a Wall Street Journal article or something.

It was like, there's an argument made that it actually is As galvanizing as it's sort of being made out to be, like people at the end of the day are like you'll still be able, they'll still be states where you can get an abortion and there's still, you know, ultimately you're talking about almost something hypothetical in many people's lives.

13:12

Like some people have already had kids and be like there's there's few people like there.

There's obviously a lot of enough people that are very passionate about the issue that are like diehards one way or the other but it's you know, the general American like Is this going to turn anybody's votes?

13:28

You know, I don't know if it will, like, I don't know if it's that big of a deal for a lot of people in a practical sense.

You might have people that are worried about, you know, if they, if they're going to like this, going to affect their ability to like, what are they thinking?

Like well like what if I get pregnant and then, you know, it's like you're talking about, like, you know, getting pregnant while being, you know, like the contraception didn't work, so you have that failure, and then it's like, then you don't want the baby.

13:54

So there's that second rung and then it's like the third one is like, you know, you know, well, you can't get an abort, you're in a stay of the can't, you can't get an abortion.

So, and then for some reason, Traveling.

Next one.

So there's all these things.

Like when you start thinking the hypothetical it's like over you still can get it.

But you know on the on the side of the left I can see how this is something where it's like you see the beginning of this kind of thing happening and it's like okay here come the erosion of Rights and which is ironic coming from.

14:21

Yeah and like yeah yeah it's a pendulum but also like the the timing is strange in this era of bodily autonomy, right?

Yeah.

It's just strange and I see like an energy almost like a well no you can't actually do these things.

You thought were always enshrined and legal apparatus is like Roe versus Wade.

14:39

Or yeah, you just how you can say no to a vaccine or whatever, you know.

Like, it just all seems to be the same driving energy where it's moving in that direction.

Yeah, this by piece.

We can you extrapolate and look far enough into the future.

You know, things that were considered foundational, it, whether it's free speech Roe versus Wade, or well, maybe we need a Ministry of Truth or maybe you don't actually have the bodily autonomy thought you had right, you know, yeah, it's interesting.

15:04

Sting, you know, it's always been kind of interesting to me that this is a right-wing issue or like, you know, in the sense that like the pro-life a lot tend to be right wing, like you like it seems to be something that is aligned with the, you know, when you have only two parties, you know, people just kind of pair off.

15:25

Yeah, I guess I guess it's that simple.

But it's, yeah, I can because it is to me it's always seemed like more consistent.

Like the parallels with the vaccine are pretty glaring here like and for me, it's always seemed like, yeah, I'm I'm pro-choice.

You should be able to choose if you want to get the vaccine I'm pro-choice.

15:40

You shouldn't be able to interfere with a woman's body.

Like so to me it's always seemed the same under the same Banner or whatever.

And but but it's and yet it's always seemed to be a right-wing kind of darling issue.

15:57

And pro-life is anti-abortion like it's funny how they both would have taken like, pro-choice, or yeah.

Yeah, both sides.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

And then the pro-choice is actually anti-life or anti babies.

Yeah.

It's an interesting play.

16:15

So, yeah, I guess.

Let's talk first.

I mean, the kind of interesting thing about this episode I think is just going to be talking about what, like, you know, everybody survives an idea about the issues, like, what is our opinion on the matter?

Like, you know, this is like might not be interesting to anybody else but it's certainly a, you know, this is what I think is the meat of it.

16:33

And like I think that We are fairly broken up your like Marvin and I know disagree on this is actually one of the few things.

I know there's a few things that we like major issues that we don't necessarily see eye to eye on but this is one of them.

16:53

Abortion is not a hill.

I'm willing to die on though really have an opinion about it but I'm it's not a strong opinion.

Yeah yeah it's a feel the same.

I would say the same to actually it's funny enough pro-choice in a sense like just I don't know.

You want to do it.

It's your baby your life.

17:09

You know anything with obviously we'll get into that limitations and whatnot.

Yeah, yeah and I wonder like, you know, it'd be interesting a pole at globally.

I think most people that were probably kind of actually you're just reasonable humans.

Yeah, sure.

Okay, you know, Yeah.

17:26

Yeah, for me.

So like I think that and you know, without getting into the whole thing II, think there may be with getting into the whole don't know like like for me a lot of it is this is emblematic of a problem.

I think we have with society and where there seems to be a discrepancy between what is, what should be codified in law.

17:50

And what is, you know, a morality or a question of morality or ethics and like, like, the way I look at this is like, You need to have something.

Like when you're living in a society, you have a bunch of different people, a bunch of different opinions and you have to find sort of the best fit for everybody and the that best fit can only come about through like a first principle kind of system where you have like very like top-level.

18:13

Like I think the American Constitution does this really well where it's like that, you know, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, like just you know these are the things that you just can't violate and that's like a great system.

You know, you might not agree with all of the points but if you have a society that's built on that, Comes a lot easier to codify laws and to make sure that you have the people in the country that are have the same lady.

18:36

You know, at the very least, we're all humans, we all care about our children and we all care about, you know, like the rights that enshrine the society sick fundamental rights and from there, you can build everything up from there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's worth noting that some societies don't have that, right?

18:51

Like, there's a lot of or they have their own list.

That is different from what they have in Western Nations.

Now you see that and you see that, you see that sort of topsy-turvy creeping into our world too?

Yeah, you know, like, oh of, you know, freedom is a dangerous word, right?

19:08

Never, yeah, yeah, creepy.

For me, I the way I look at this as like, something like this issue become it's a clear choice of, you know, the government shouldn't have control over the government.

19:26

Shouldn't be able to tell anybody what they can do with their body.

And you can take that to any real extreme, like they shouldn't be able to give somebody a vaccine.

I don't care if it's like, you know, 99% lethal disease in principle, they shouldn't be able to do that and the same as this.

19:42

I for me, it's like, you know, I would say it's in terms of a legal issue.

It should not be the government's duty to interfere or, like the government shouldn't interfere in a woman's ability to like manage her body like, you know.

20:02

So it's yeah.

I know what you're presenting.

It makes it quite fundamental here.

Make a very clear line of delineation.

Yeah, it saves everybody time to like, I mean, like, you know what I mean?

There's not like these court cases.

Azure like it.

It's and you know, you might not agree with it like morally, you know, you can say like well what about the you know, what about the woman is going to go in and get like, you know, ninth or you know, fourth trimester third, trimester like abortion or whatever.

20:24

And it's like, okay, like how many people are actually going to do that and then you start getting to the morality of it and like, then you give the doctors the choice of whether they want to have the abortion or not, right?

So like, anyway, that's, that's sort of my take on these things and like I would say, like just sort of started off as like, that is my position.

20:41

Is that in terms of a law I think that there should be, you know, well, actually we have in Canada, which is there, and I didn't know this before I before I started researching this episode, but like, we don't have any like, you know, you can get an abortion at any level or at any period of your right, to the very end of your pregnancy, which they say statistically, happens exceedingly rare, right?

21:07

You know.

So then it's like, are we arguing like forever and ever?

But something that happens like in such a fraction of a fraction of a percent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I get it like the concept, you know, like, you know, eight and a half months into it right.

Obviously feel.

It just feels devastating.

Yeah.

At that point because, you know, that baby could survive outside but what percentage of the actual abortions when we're talking about as a mechanism actually happened in that time frame, right?

21:31

Yeah, very small number.

Yeah, you know, there's a little bit of a grace period, even after the birth where the mother can kill the child.

And then they'll just label it.

Infanticide and say, oh, she was having mental problems and she just gets Basically, a slap on the wrist, I don't know if that's Canada, or if that's other countries, but heard of that, where does that?

21:49

And where does that happen under?

Like, what is, I've never heard of that, heard something to the effect, I don't quote me on it.

But like, yeah, it can actually have birth and still decide after the bird.

You can just drown the baby in a bathtub, a week later.

And they'll be like, oh, she just went crazy.

Well, isn't that?

That sounds like something that happened 19th century or something, like, well, I mean, funny story, like my dad's the seventh child and I got in a very rural agricultural family.

22:13

You know, an increase on the side of a mountain in the 1940s.

First World War Two, and my grandmother would always loving most loving family, right?

And but she would turn to my father and go, you know, when you when I found out, I was pregnant for the seventh time and no.

So this is going back to countries that had no laws around this, right?

22:31

All right.

Villagers and just like survival, you know, they had no electricity and no running water.

All right, so maybe just so those are wartime, wasn't it?

Like, yeah, but even, you know, but, you know, if electricity happened in London England, I do 19.

Bite em.

It comes down to the Mediterranean up, the side of a mountain is no 30 years, right?

22:48

So, that, yeah, the infrastructure just wasn't there but this might go back to how things have been done for thousands of years.

Just the mentality around it.

Yeah and she would turn to my father was, you know, when I found out I was pregnant with you except we can't feed another child in the house so I tried so hard to abort.

You myself.

I said in freezing water and all these other really.

23:05

Yeah.

Damage on you just wouldn't die Bravo.

You are really strong.

Yeah, and it's kind of dark humor.

Or I kind of just also open the highlights like the survival reality sometimes.

Yes.

Right.

And, you know, you're almost proud of the child like I tried and you just were too stubborn, right?

23:23

Right.

Okay.

You can stay, you know?

Yeah, that's crazy spider, that walks around the toilet sometimes.

Well, I've tried to flush you down three times but I guess he survived now.

Yeah, it's funny though it because it's a very like yeah, that really does kind of paint a picture of how, you know, like people talk about this stuff.

23:42

So Almost hypothetically or talking about the legalese of and it's like, but these are, they still comes down to real people having real decisions to make about and you saw anything.

But yeah, to parents involving you wish it or like, where are you mentally in your health?

Like, it's, it really isn't a visual.

Yeah.

And these are some of the most moral out you know outstanding humans have ever known.

24:02

So the whole morality behind a part.

Yeah.

Like it just didn't view it in that framework at all.

Yeah, it's like just raw survival.

Yeah.

Right right.

So, like, just for the record.

Let's all kind of Eight, our state, our abortion beliefs.

Like, you know, and I would, I would even argue that, I don't know.

24:22

You know, it's like the three trimesters.

What stage is what like, you know, it's kind of you can kind of, like ballpark at or whatever, but it's like, you know, I do hear people talking about it and certain terms stages of development and this, and that and for me, that gets a little bit like, for me, that gets a little bit too almost beside the point.

24:43

And Like you know people trying to, you know, you could the argument can be that.

Like for me, it's like it should be almost absolute in terms of the laws.

So you have conception or you have birth, right.

Like everything in the middle is almost you know, that is just accounting or something.

25:01

Like it's the green zone.

Yes, the gray Zone.

Nobody really knows.

I people who say well like well that's what the development of the prefrontal cortex.

That's like it's like you don't really know that I learned beat ya can sustain.

Life on its own when he hits, you know, in an incubator.

Yeah.

Moments like that.

25:17

Why is death so easy to Define them?

Is it though?

I mean heartbeat and brain function would probably be the two things that matter, right?

Yeah, that's a good point, but it doesn't necessarily have to be, I mean, death happens with everybody watching and with a conscious person that can respond different things, like, sort of in the moment.

25:44

Like, I guess it's not like the dead personally.

Like I had, I am dead now, folks.

It is such a tricky philosophical question because it is totally the woman's body totally understand her autonomy over this.

But at a certain point, it's no longer just her body.

26:03

Yeah.

True Point happens at some point when the that which is not hers and is inside her still, right?

But there needs to be a point of Like, there needs to be a dmarc point, you know, where it's like, okay, this and you for me, it's there's no way of doing that without infringing on the woman's, right?

26:25

Religious terms, they do call it.

The Immaculate Conception at the immaculate first heartbeat.

All right, right?

Right Immaculate.

Brain functioning, you know, the maximum health Wolves.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a yeah.

No that's so, that's a good point and in terms of the, you know, it Again, it's more also like morally for me.

26:47

It's like a, you know, if my partner got pregnant, I would I would want her.

I don't think I would ever want to her to have an abortion and I would also argue, you know, it would probably get to a point where like if she was dead set against it and she was going to get the abortion, it would be the end of our relationship.

27:06

Like I, you know, in the sense that it would be well, you know, you like I would feel very strongly about it.

The fact that I was like you just killed, you know.

My potential child, he put it in good terms like if my partner got pregnant.

No doubt from that moment.

27:21

If deciding to abort the baby would be like the same to me as deciding to stop a life.

Right?

Right.

So therefore heart function or no heart function, it's a life.

Yeah, you know, and you might be okay without you, might say it's early, it doesn't feel anything, it's not conscious thought, maybe that's your own personal choice to intubate, should Raymond dream, remain in that realm.

27:43

But for me, personally, as you just Listening to you.

If my girlfriend significant other got pregnant and we were deciding to abort it even in the first month it's that which will become life.

Whether it's laugh at this moment or not.

Yeah, and therefore, I still like stopping life.

27:59

Right?

That's a tough one.

Well, it's a tough one because you're at the same time being like, you know, I believe in a woman's right to choose right up until the end or whatever.

And but it's like, but don't you dare do it because you know what I mean?

But but it's that's because that is part my childlike and you know my potential child.

28:15

And and you know I do think that that's you know there's there's certainly some Merit to that right?

Men do get kicked out of the conversation a little too easily like we are happy percent of the equation.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah sure.

You're not removing any of her choice though but there's like big consequences for her choice.

28:33

Yeah, your relationship.

Yeah, I'm not taking away her autonomy, but I'm saying that, you know, I like, you can, you can sort of say whatever you want or like you tell me.

Like all the reasons why it's your right to have the abortion.

But you know, if it's if it's my baby then you know, great you have that, right?

28:52

But like we're done or that sense.

What gives a woman more say over than the man?

Just because it's in the woman's body?

Yeah, I can see that.

Then we have to admit, it's in the woman's body.

Like, it's a, yeah, because the man is half the equation.

It's half his baby too.

But but that's where the legality, I think comes in and it comes in handy because it's like we don't have any real say over it as men because You know, we have a say on the personal level for sure.

29:17

Like that's, you know, that's why you have a partner that you have the same, you know, ideals with like, I like if you're with somebody who you're that Divergent in your beliefs, then that's something you should examine.

But and that's why you're having that problem.

29:32

But if you're, you know, if you're generally on the same Journey.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

And yeah, so it's I think it becomes very Easy to say, you know, during the pregnancy stage, it's a woman's Choice.

29:49

Whether she wants to abort in a legal sense and the man really doesn't have much say, you know, they can they don't, they can't infringe upon that bodily autonomy, law.

I mean, the, the biology of it is, it's happening in the woman.

So this is going to give her.

30:05

It's kind of like squatter's rights as she's got, right?

She's got dibs on this.

Yeah, you know and even though you're half the equation, hmm, they do end of it.

It's in her body.

Yeah.

You know, it just the way, you know, Evolution happened.

Yeah.

So maybe men just have to like, sit back and take it like no.

All right.

You know what can I say?

30:21

Hmm, I have less say in this matter because it's not my body, you know?

Yeah, it's unfortunate because like philosophically, yes, it's half your each you may have always wanted a child and this is the one chance.

Something accidentally happened.

And maybe you were told as a man, you could never have kids, right?

30:37

And this is the moment, you know?

Like it can be devastating for a man.

Yeah.

But in the final analysis.

It's in her body.

Yeah.

And life is devastating.

You know there's a lot of shitty things that happen in life that you can't control like you you know.

But the idea with laws is to try to find the right balance for the most people and just have some consistency about it so that you're working on these.

30:58

You know I know I say this first principle is saying a lot but it's like it just makes everything easier, it takes away, you know, court cases tough decisions.

Like you know, you can have all the inward turmoil you want and like have, you know, debates endlessly in your household Old amongst whether you should get the abortion or not.

31:16

But like, in terms of the law, it should just be, you know, we don't want the government, like I don't want the government, you know, interfering in any aspect of my life.

That's not like, you know.

Okay.

You want to charge taxes?

Like that's a little bit like I would even argue about some of that but it's some of it, some of that I can be like, okay, we're in a society.

31:32

So there's some concession there, but yeah, it becomes too much Nanny State when you're even down to the bodily parts of your body.

Yeah.

And like debating over.

Well what week pregnancy is it and what As if there's some we've somehow been endowed with the knowledge to discern when life begins, you know, like it's think it's literally the state encroaching on your own bodily functions.

31:53

Right?

Right.

You know what do you think about that?

Marvin.

You have your the dissenting opinion here I think.

Yeah, I wanted to say something else.

I wanted to paraphrase, Dave, Chappelle, I don't know if you remember his bit, it was a she gets the kill it.

32:09

I get to decide whether or not I want to leave or not.

Mmm.

All right, if you she gets to kill it, I get to decide whether to abandon it or not because it seems like if the woman wants the baby in the mail, doesn't want the baby still on the hook for 18 years.

Would he be?

32:26

It's a good question.

Yeah, maybe there's got to be a paper to be signed.

Yeah.

You know, like I do with this is what we, I don't want an abortion, otherwise, it's all yours.

You know, that's interesting.

I think that that's, but I think that, that, I mean, just on, just hearing that.

Like, I mean, that sounds reasonable like to I mean, I think, again, you get into the moral and legal, like, obviously you should be morally.

32:50

That's a burden.

You have to carry as a somebody psychological to like at the end of the day.

It's the man I'm going to go deep here, but like the man penetrating woman, perhaps that is the contract and itself.

If you really didn't want that, if you didn't want to be on the hook for raising a child, that was the moment, the man should have stopped you like it.

33:09

You really, it comes back to people who are meeting like, you know, and not to we can maybe talk a bit about About like promiscuity and all this like you know, if you want to be promiscuous and you want to meet women all the time and how sex with them, that's fine.

If one wants to do the same comes at a cost comes at a cost and you might find a man that does leave or you might find a woman that does 10 aboard the kid and you might change your mind.

33:31

But like that's you have a responsibility for your actions and you know, that's part of it.

I and I think that yeah that's the case of the Dave Chappelle thing is like okay.

Well I would say, you know, it's morally repugnant for a It is sort of walk away from your responsibilities like that, but legally sure he should be able to.

33:49

It's not his in my teenage years.

My father used to say, as a man is only two things.

You have to be careful of what is it done?

Where you put your signature and where you put your penis?

Right?

It's kind of brutal.

Yeah, but you know there's there is a certain good, certain contractual agreement when you become Amorous with somebody.

34:08

This may go down that road, right?

This is what that action creates.

Yeah, you know.

Yeah, and you should have The, you know, and not to be puritanical or whatever is just like you have to know, you have to be comfortable with the person you're with, on some level, if it's some sort of, you know, you just get together and it's a casual thing that's fine, but know that, you know, know that you're both risking something there.

34:30

And there's a potential for damage there and if it's not then, you know, maybe you're on the same wavelength.

So if a pregnancy unplanned, pregnancy happens, or something like that, then you can you're both going to be like, you know, the man will be like, okay, I'm ready to My part in this and then we like and I'm ready to have your child to a degree in.

34:47

Marvin's point is reasonable.

Like if he says, I just don't want to have this and there was a medical intervention that could prevent it from happening safely for everybody involved.

Please do it.

I can't afford it can am not right people for this whatever and this the partners like know you are on the hook for the next.

35:05

Well 20% of your life are more, that's quite the asking.

Do you does anybody know the law on that?

It's just as Marvin had Planed.

I think you're on the hook, sir.

It's even worse than that.

I don't know if this was in Canada or the states, but a man did a paternity test found out.

35:23

The child was not his left the woman and he was still on the hook for child support.

I mean, that just sounds that sounds like a lot of Officer territory but I'm sure weird things like that have happened.

And they have a relationship before or maybe they can be all kinds of stuff, you know, there is a lot.

35:39

I mean, we can go down a whole government intervention in Canada.

It is really tilted toward the woman in terms of spousal support, like there's cases where you can be you know, with somebody you know you break up and then you're just paying the person who broke up with some percentage of your salary, over the next, like 10 years or whatever because there's, you know, just just because, just because it's not even to do with the babies.

36:10

Like, I literally, I made more money than you.

We were together.

This many years.

I owe you Now part of my salary.

Yeah.

What the how is that is outrageous?

Yeah, I mean that's what I always thought was like that's where that's what the whole married ideas for us.

Like you want to have like start putting things in law, okay, that's one thing.

36:25

But now this like common law, you know, it just gets too vague and again, you get too many hands like, you know, lawyers governments in the, you know, going to courts clogging up the court system about these like, means of breakup done finished, unless there's a child involved.

36:40

Yeah, fires.

Child Chul for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely, no one spouse is just incapable of working and or you I can see a bit of a grey Zone but it should be used really rarely for the spousal support, you know.

Right.

Right, you know, mental health, or whatever difference, you know, living arrangements of, you know, each family kind of configures itself in a certain way, you know.

37:00

But yeah.

Very, very rarely.

Yeah, I have I know.

I know, one person she made more than the husband, they got divorced, she gave him the house.

Like one time.

Pay off their, we're done.

I don't want to deal with you anymore and she just moved on.

She was Is definitely making more money.

It was, this was in you get the house.

37:17

Yeah, yeah, well I you know, this is in Canada she probably could have done better in the court like they were probably you know, she could have done there and then we'll read it.

She's like, she's like, I am a woman.

So I'll get her and she just took the executive decision.

Okay.

I don't want to be in here doing this for the next 20 years.

Mmm, you get the 2 million dollar house.

37:32

Ciao.

Oh God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's nice.

Yeah.

I mean, that's a good.

That's a.

I mean, that sounds like an obviously don't, I don't know.

Whomever it is, but it's like, that's a seem that idea is a I think well-adjusted one.

It's like that's clean cut, you know, there's, you know, you don't want to, you know, you never want to have a situation where you're giving where you're giving, you know, you don't want to leave somebody and just leave them like again, it's a morality thing.

37:57

You'd want to leave somebody just like leave them Destiny - like to.

Here's your financial payout.

Yeah, I'm emotionally done with you.

You're not going to be part of my life in this sense.

Yeah, more.

We're done right supposed to every time you see your paycheck or reminded of the spouse you once ate it.

Yeah.

And resenting.

It like, yeah.

38:13

This is a Joe Rogan story, but I think he told it about a comedian named.

I think it was Dave Foley.

All right, guy, he got a divorce.

And then the judge at the height of this, dude's career was like, okay, you're making like, whatever 10 million a year.

So, you old, the wife, like 2 million, a year and then his career obviously went downhill after that and he was like, stuck paying her like from the height of his career, right?

38:35

Wasn't a percentage.

It was like a fixed amount.

Yeah.

Well it in Canada.

You can they re like Sometimes, you can get a fixed fixed thing where it's like, okay, they look at the salaries and they're like, okay, well, this is, you know, you're making 200,000, she was making a hundred thousand, so you have to pay her or what some difference for the next, like X number of years.

38:57

Six years and then it's done.

But some of them, you have to keep reapplying.

It's like it might not even be done at that point.

Like you still have to go back and see the reassess.

The situation is like that's just that's like a prison sentence like that.

That is really like, I'm a fair one longer than the marriage lasted to there.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

39:13

Yeah, exactly.

There's, there's a story I read of this kind, he was in from Canada, but he ended up in that situation where he was sent to or like, yeah, sentenced to pay a bunch of money again.

No, child.

Involved is just like like just spousal support, but he ended up having to pay her some like a lot of money and he was like, basically looked at what he was making and he's like, I basically am not going to have a good life.

39:38

So he left, he left the country.

He's like, I'm like and he sent a message just saying like I'm you know, I'm just Coming back like and it gives like a warrant out.

Like there would be a warrant out of here if he landed here he would have all this back payment but Catch Me If You Can.

Yeah.

Yeah that point.

So you get nothing.

39:56

Make sure to negotiate it.

But anyway, yeah, I think that there's a lot of we only get paid when you get paid.

Yeah, but there's a lot of laws, you know, bringing it again to this whole idea of there being a morality side and a legal side, you you really want to look at like I think in society in general we need to have that as a And she Asian because it's like, it causes a lot of problems and it causes a lot of people, it is for it.

40:31

Certainly gives the ability for the media and for interested parties and sort of inflating issues where there isn't one or making things sound worse than they are.

Like abortion is one freedom of speech is another and you get into situations where it's like, you know, fundamental right should be freedom of speech, you know?

40:55

Nobody can say whatever they want.

Now you get into the morality of that.

Like you don't want somebody, you know, crying fire and the it's crowded theater, whatever.

But you would hope as a society, you know, very few people do that would be very rare and if it did happen it would be like there's a lot of be social consequences to that especially in this day and age right now.

41:15

I don't know if that's just overly optimistic and then you know, you can get into hate speech and that kind of thing, it's just such a becomes such a tricky road to navigate.

It's almost like I would say if you're going to air on one side which side because you're going to make errors.

Hmm, what side do you want to are on more often?

41:33

Right?

Right.

Or control or less control?

Yeah, I would prefer I think from what I've seen in my lifetime to err on the side of less control.

Yeah.

You know and then just let humans figure it out diversity.

There's a mall, figure it out, it's messy, freedom is actually really messy and that's the problem.

41:48

People are looking for neat, orderly stuff.

I think is the more structured, our societies become the more we're looking for our laws to be really neat and tidy 82, and freedom, really isn't like the freedom like a wild garden.

It's free.

You don't know.

Yeah, it was my take over and then the weeds.

You don't know what's going on.

Right?

Right.

Whereas a nice neat Garden has been delineate it into all these sections.

42:06

Everything else.

Yeah.

But you're not gonna get a lot of diversity that way, you know, and you might miss out on something that you need as a society.

Right now, I would always personally err on the side of freedom.

Because freedom is diversity.

You just have different diverging points of view.

So what we centralize sort of being is, you know, you're just assuming it's got some sort of Mega structure that's going to be infallible.

42:26

Mmm.

And then introduced by being centralized is going to be big, slow, and bureaucratic.

All right.

So how on Earth is going to be better?

You know?

Yeah, you brought up a good point before about, you know, when we were talking before about yelling an insult at somebody, and if you would use sort of a racial slur And you gave an example of somebody at a golf course, like, yelling that at somebody.

42:51

And then, I guess they're what probably was posted all over social media.

Yeah, they are person.

That was getting yelled at was filming them.

The person doing the yelling.

Maybe they thought, you know, something physical is going to happen like, all right, right.

I always find playing with the camera just kind of a move to real bitch move.

43:07

Yeah, yeah.

I just, you know, my deal.

It, you know, person a person, you know, it's kind of like the whole Johnny Depp stuff too and Amber Heard like really do need to be recording your spouse at their worst moment.

All right.

Well, you know, then you're acting at your best moment like it's just.

Yeah.

So of course the person holding the camera is going to be all.

Like look at me, I'm potentially the victim and this parade coming on me.

43:26

Ha, they said a bad four letter word, right?

You know.

Yeah, like learning like what would we need a new book now?

And what are socially?

Acceptable, slanderous words.

You can use?

Yeah, well yeah.

And because you get into a situation where like first of all when I'm you know, if I get cut off or something in traffic or whatever it is that like you know, when you want to yell at somebody You don't want to have to filter that like, I mean and that's not good.

43:50

Like I'm not saying that that's a good thing but it's like a, you want to obviously minimize that.

But like if you're angry you want to hurt the other person.

Like you want to think of the most offensive thing you can so like you know anybody its very nature.

You're going for their weakest spot.

Yeah.

You don't want to be like like you.

Gosh darn like you know bad guy or whatever like is it doesn't insult.

44:11

Anybody like you have to get you have to get in there, you know, like and chic.

Go back to the thing.

It's just words, man.

Exactly, that's what it comes down when he touched you.

It's just words.

If they had said all that stuff in a foreign language you would have had no idea what they said and you would not have your feelings hurt.

44:29

Yeah.

So it's actually kind of gets a little spiritual but it's your interpretation of the words almost as much as what the actual words are.

Right?

So, well now here's an interesting thing and if anyone wants to say anything, just interrupt, I don't want to monopolize anything, but if you get like, this is another question where it's like, when you have a woman on the So it's like, well, we are three white men.

44:49

So maybe this isn't three straight white men.

We're not so sure about Marvin.

But moon is anything wrong?

Anybody named?

Marvin little marvelous.

So, you want to, like, we have to, I can appreciate that.

45:05

Somebody might say, look, what the hell do you know about, you know, insults or whatever?

Like, you don't know what, it's like being a minority or this and that, and I can appreciate that.

Like, I, you're right, like, I don't know, and I haven't had that.

Particular insult.

You know, come on, everybody.

You could someone say glasses for eyes?

45:22

Yeah, everybody is salted.

I spent the years in high school like there's this.

I, you know, one of the school's I went to is like the wood that was all people did.

Like it was just fights and like, you know, insults and I was just like, you know, I've been, I've been called, you know, I don't know if I had the four eyes when I mean in grade school, I probably did have that, but it was, you know, I had a lot of like people thought I was gay for a long time in high school On stuff like that.

45:48

Probably even in universities, but it's but, you know, and at the time, like, it was hurtful like, it wasn't as accepting to be gay at the time, right?

So it was like, I didn't want people to think I was like, not to mention the like deleterious effects.

46:04

It had on my like, trying to woo women and stuff like that.

But like, you know, and there's been other, you know, I've been various other insults in this and that.

So like, you know, I don't know when I think back to Like, I don't know, Granite.

I don't know what it's like, growing up in a, you know, in high school now or but I, you know, it's not the, I'm foreign again, I'm a human.

46:26

I have empathy, and I can abstract one situation and and recognize that while I'm not a minority.

So I don't know what it's like to be called like, you know, a racial slur.

I there are other things like that.

I wouldn't call it racial slurs, the worst of all slurs, exactly.

46:42

A slur is a slur.

Well, I think the feelings are hurt, you know you?

Yeah, you're the other.

You've Right, you know, especially these days.

I mean it's not I mean like I think that like I get it.

Like, I don't get me wrong.

Like there's no.

Like I think that, you know, I hate saying the n word but it's like, you know, it, I get that, you know, years ago being called that it's it makes sense that I would be such a, you know, you because you're feeling like a lesser human or run it whatever and maybe you're not, so sure you're like, well, I don't know.

47:11

Maybe I am a group identity in that point because obviously, you're not going to identify if someone says, Hey, four eyes and I was on your part of the far-right.

Boop.

Yeah, right.

Exactly, yeah, visualized, yeah, yeah.

Just directly to you, so.

Yeah, I get it.

There are is a gradient.

Yeah, I don't know.

Like, it have to be just really like repetitively.

47:27

Like the person repeatedly doing the same mannerisms over and over again.

Like, this guy's got an issue.

Yeah, as opposed to the once every ten years, you just blew up because someone cut you off and try, right?

Well, the and like, think about it this way, to if you're really obese and you try everything, you can to lose weight and like and whatever it is not working.

47:47

It's just you don't have the willpower or whatever, but it's still torments you so you're still like it's still negatively affecting you in a big way and then people go out of their way to sort of bully you all the time about being overweight.

Like that's really harmful, right?

Like that's going to hurt that person.

So like is that worse than calling somebody?

The especially these days like, you know, a racial slur which I you know I would say it casually but I don't want to, you know, it's like you say it and we were truly a Nobody Knows the depths of your own personal pain.

48:11

Right?

Right buddy.

Had three divorces a like yeah, my exist.

Right.

Yeah, like nobody knows that mean like to your point.

That's why people throw them because they want to hurt the other person to the almost highest degree possible with just words.

48:28

Mmm, so yeah.

Yeah, to pull back is just like a completely opposite energy, you know?

Yeah.

And it's not even in human nature.

I don't think, you know, it's like an you have to almost let that out sometimes.

I would think other, than otherwise, it's pretty was very you.

Like, going live in hockey analogy, allowing a little bit of fighting in hockey.

48:45

I prevents more injuries because then you just See the person face-to-face, you understand, is the confrontation, right?

So allowing people to almost legal scream to whatever limit they want.

May actually stop them from getting into a physical confrontation, because they've had enough of an outlet to feel relieved from the moment, right?

49:00

Yeah.

Like a release valve a safety valve, you know?

Yeah, like I am by doing that, maybe that's creating is what we see in society.

This pent-up sort of like just anxiety, depression.

Nobody can speak their open mind anymore, right?

They cut someone off in traffic was a jerk.

Yeah, you know.

49:16

Yeah.

It can be very claustrophobic emotion and you know it is you know like I feel Simon almost simultaneously to feelings every time I sort of lose my shit and just like blow up with somebody I feel simultaneously like relieved and shamed.

49:33

Like I feel like shit afterwards cause I'm like, like oh are the lesson?

Yeah, yeah that's part of the lesson.

Yeah.

It's what I said was wrong.

I'm going to learn from that.

I could have done this.

I couldn't handle it a different way.

Yeah.

And the next time you try harder and If you can't, you know, and then after sometime, maybe you realize, hey, like maybe I just have a problem with, like, anger or like, maybe it's me, maybe I'm the problem.

49:56

I mean, it's not in my cave, you these ways of being or trying to create a better Humanity, but it's making worse, humans.

Ya know, like we're looking at like, such a good group, what makes for a better world, but is it actually making you better?

Do you have a chance to make your mistakes falter and learn from them?

Yeah, you know, I agree.

50:12

But like, can we bring it back to abortion for a bit too?

Yeah, by all means.

That's it.

Cuz I know Marvin has some like we really have I think different points of view in this and a very intelligent guy and I has a way of like putting things.

I just want to know you know like we're where you stand on all this.

Yeah.

50:30

Now that we've kind of warmed up a little bit, we've kind of gotten everywhere.

Now where the juices are flowing.

Like where are you at?

I get the argument that you want laws to be as simple as possible.

But I'm uncomfortable with late-term abortions.

And by late term, I even mean like in the second trimester so second trimester, what is it?

50:52

What is that like what's happening in the womb?

I mean you've got a heartbeat, you've got brain activity, they're already kicking.

You feel them moving?

I mean there's a reason why Planned Parenthood did not want the women to have ultrasounds because when the woman sees an ultrasound in the second trimester she sees a living baby inside of her and she doesn't want to abort it at that point.

51:13

I'm guessing some of these women at that point.

Still think it's like a clump of cells in their stomach but they see a fully formed human in there and they don't want to go through it anymore.

After that.

What's in it for Planned Parenthood to like 11 more impartial hat on or yes, l means The body parts of the aborted fetuses are used for various things like Cosmetics research.

51:34

They're very expensive.

Wow.

It's like recycling.

Yeah.

Let's well.

Isn't there a movie like that?

Where they're like using the body parts?

Will Smith the eyes, the end.

It's got the other person's eyes and smile, maybe.

Yeah, I don't know.

51:50

Yeah, yeah.

No point by thinking Canada.

No.

Abortion clinic recommends, I don't know if they allow After Twenty three and a half weeks which would be at the end of the six months or so allow what abortion?

Well you're saying three months even Well is he said second second, second second, trimester 24:46, yeah.

52:12

So at that point, I think I was reading last night officially I'd like the clinics will just they only they don't want to deal with it at that point and after but I'm sure it happens.

Yeah sure there's some private Clinic somewhere is there is like so are even the clinic seem to have a line whether how often they cross that line.

52:27

And how easy is it to cross that line?

I don't know.

Yeah, but that's what they would officially right?

Yeah, I don't think I TR point, I don't think anybody emotionally feel Is good about the idea of babies, being aborted in the like 7th 8th 9th month.

Yeah.

But at the same time, I don't want to ban it either.

52:44

I just want to be able to call the woman a murderer, if she goes in there and gets a 7 month, old fetus ripped apart and taken out of her.

Is that a fair trade?

Well, if the depends on what you consider life, if you would consider it live like a live at that time and now it's no longer alive due to her actions.

53:02

Yeah, well you, I mean, you could have a cesarean.

I don't know when that kind of kicks in, but like 51 weeks is the earliest recorded for cesarean immature birth.

What is that?

That's like, let's say years and they say 5131, I think it was 31.

53:17

Yes, it was 5 months.

Each month, the 20-ish weeks.

Yeah, it's the earliest recorded birth.

So if you can have a cesarean at six months and have a, it's a premature baby, I never be a little bit smaller, but it's going to live a normal life.

Then if you're a boarding at at that time, you're literally ripping out arms and legs of a baby that could survive on it.

53:36

Yeah, I would agree with you.

There's a medical way to make that baby live, but then that's, that's a slippery slope because we might have something in the future, you know, like in bubbly water, you take the baby at like six weeks and it'll survive to, right?

Like, that's a gradient that my shift with technology.

Yeah.

I think that you should be able to Protester.

53:53

If you want, like, if the, if your issue is that you can't call somebody a murderer.

Like, I think there are actually laws in Canada where you can't protest outside, abortion clinics or something, or there's some you can't or something like that but which is ridiculous like a, you know, but I I get why these things are done but it's like again, let's try and make things as simple as possible and like of course you would be should be able to like, you know, say what you want.

54:17

I always say morally.

It's like I you know, what I would say that that Morally is probably just as questionable as somebody having an abortion at that point.

So like I do test itself, he mean well yeah the fact like calling like because you would think you know, calling somebody the idea is I want me going in for an abortion is like, you know, it's a tough decision and like, they don't want to do it and it's like a horrible day for them, but, you know, so, you know, screaming at them just makes it a shittier for them, but like, at the same time, I would think, you know why, you know, I'm sure there are reasons or whatever, but somebody who is getting an abortion that laid its Like you know, why are you having abortion?

54:54

So the important, the protesters aren't picking and choosing who they could be somebody going in there in the eighth and a half month, having an abortion, right?

Right.

That point that like, dude to me that's murder, you know, yeah, and do the doctors.

I is another thing I think is the doctor should be able to choose just as they should be able to choose what they don't want to do transgender operations or whatever is the doctors right to choose, you know like I mean I can run again I'll go in at one Higher and say like it can be the hospital's policy that they have to do this and they lose their job.

55:21

If they don't But ultimately, it's just Freedom of Choice all the way down, you know.

So I see it.

Sir, what happens in the event that I walk up to a pregnant woman who's eight months pregnant and I just blaster in the stomach and cause a miscarriage.

What am I charged with blaster in the stomach with what water but like slanderous word?

55:43

Well you could be true.

Yeah, I don't know.

That's a good question because you're like really you're charged with assault for sure.

But would you get Vicki murder though?

Is that It's not your body, he would find yourself in the ridiculous situation of trying to your lawyer will be trying to prove that the that that wasn't a real life and their do in order to spare you from a murder charge, has been cases, where a pregnant woman's died.

56:06

In the guy's been charged with a double homicide.

Why is that?

Well, if that I mean, that's the mother dies.

All right.

Yeah, yeah.

So that takes it out of the abortion, you know, whole pregnancy part.

And I'd say well, the mother and the child died I think.

56:21

Yeah.

But I think The the key feature here is like, so the kick was and okay, gets confusing because you could say, the fact that she was pregnant and resulted in her herself as a mother dying because of complications due to being pregnant and being kicked so becomes intertwined, but you just kicking a person that person dying.

56:38

Yeah.

In itself is murder, right, right?

Yeah.

If the baby were to die and she survives, right?

Yeah, I still think that you probably just guessing.

I still think it.

Probably considered murder to your point that it's then a true life.

It's a its own sentient being but the key difference is that it's actually in the difference is that it's in her body.

56:59

So she gets to make that decision.

It's still part her.

Well, she gets to make the decision on what whether it was murder or know whether she wants a board or not.

So, so what is murder in this case?

Because he's trying to make the point.

That boarding a baby at eight months is his murder.

So then if I punch you and your baby happen to die, isn't it?

57:16

That's going to be charged as murder because if that's murder than a birding, the baby?

Yeah, well that's the thing.

Like so and that's, you know, We're gets should be simple where it's like, no, that's not actually murder.

Because there has to be a consensus among everybody that in terms of the law, that bait that fetus or baby or whatever you want to call it, until they're like, you know, breathing their first breaths outside the womb.

57:39

That's not an autonomous human as far as the law is concerned.

See how technology screw things up.

It's just be so easy when.

Yeah, it's like this mirror.

Where did this miracle come from?

And you don't ya?

Like because without technological modern technology, this wouldn't be a question we like it's not right, right?

57:56

Yeah.

Yeah.

They wouldn't they wouldn't probably might know if it had died.

But yeah, I mean, it's a good question but it's the kind of thing that is this is what makes things so murky is that there is this kind of like, like all the opinions on this, our sort of start getting into the nitty-gritty of like certain, you know, weeks of gestation and This and that and it's like, no, let's just agree to say, you know, and of course like our is our innocent lives going to be like, you know, whatever your personal feelings on it.

58:31

Like whether you think that the baby is alive from the point of conception or not?

And like I would say that, you know, there's some argument to be made about that.

But like, you know, we have to agree as a society that we can just can't look at it like that.

Like otherwise these these things, get too complicated.

And there are 22 there, too many ways to interpret them.

58:50

And, you know, I can, I can see the argument so anything like well, that sounds like a child killer talk, but it's like, like, again, you have to separate the moral from the like the moral and ethical from the from the legal.

Because otherwise you have this like morass of like ambiguity that you can't kind of extricate yourself from.

59:11

You're always going to be arguing back and forth about things and things are you know, it's like let's let's let's just let's just cut it clean.

In the move on to the next issue and just do that all the way in, you know, get everything done, like that you have to, I think you have to be.

There has to be a certain businesslike way of looking at laws like you want to be compassionate, you want to do this, but you have to, you know, make a firm decision and stick to it and stick to it and be consistent.

59:40

What do you think?

Marvin?

Okay, let's give them full bodily autonomy.

You can get your abortions up until nine months, but when you walk out the clinic, you're a fucking murderer, that's what you are.

Our sure take all your bodily autonomy, but I'm not going to pretend like you ripping out an eight-month.

59:55

Fetus is not murder.

Well, you don't have to pretend, but I mean so that would affect you in a personal life.

Like you probably wouldn't want to be with a woman who is like telling you that she had.

I think she's going to atone for those sins from like on high.

1:00:11

Yes, she will be judged negatively.

I would imagine.

I mean, I would imagine she would, I would, I would agree with that.

But like, In obviously, I don't know, but like, you know, that would make sense in a kind of universe where like that kind of thing happened.

1:00:29

But Do we live in a universe where that kind of thing happens?

Like, that's a whole rabbit hole that's for another time but My middle ground.

Is this like you have?

How?

How soon do you find out?

You're pregnant.

1:00:44

Worst case a month, you miss your period.

All right, let's ask the women here.

That what I maximum three months than 90% of people know they're pregnant within three months.

Yeah.

Unless like, there's something really strange that occurs in the second.

And third, trimester like you should already have your mind made up by the first trimester, that would be my middle ground.

1:01:02

Like I have, don't really have a big problem with getting an abortion relatively early.

Hmm, I mean, there's already a heartbeat.

Like getting four or five weeks but like I don't think the nervous system is developed by then.

So in terms of like just being a pain thing, I don't think anything there is feeling any pain by being aborted.

1:01:21

Still, you know, it is it just does we talk about it, you know, it is sad.

There's like a spirit, they are so, yeah, everyone.

When does the soul get in doubt, that's being an improbably conception as I call it.

My Immaculate Conception, you know, I would, and it's developing in germinating and it's small, but it's small and grows larger.

1:01:37

But that moment that it actually instills probably, maybe I would say, then I would say that the universe is more like like, and I realized that this opinion does have a lot of To back it up, but kind of does in the sense that it's like the shorter than jurors cat kind of equations.

1:01:56

Like maybe the, maybe the spirit doesn't get endowed until it's accepted that it's going to come into the world.

So maybe the spirit is like, you know, whether that's birth or whether maybe an aborted fetus is never actually alive because it's never been in the Breath of Life.

1:02:16

Yeah.

Or like it's just that it's you know, we tend to think as humans such It's so like so stratified how we're thinking.

Like, if you start if you zoom out incorporate like quantum mechanics in the whole idea that you can have these two states systems where it's like not that thing or that idea isn't actualized until you know it is a tree falls in the forest like you know there's nobody to hear it.

1:02:43

Like if you know if the is the is that kid alive is the is the fetus have a soul.

If it gets aborted, like I don't know, I would think maybe like I would say, maybe it doesn't and maybe that's just a Rosy colored way to look at it, but I don't think that we can assume that it does and I think maybe that's what goes back to being a mother and baby.

1:03:07

Yeah, because they're just sitting, there are five months and a feeling kicks, right?

And they're singing to it and maybe it was kicking, and they start singing and it stops kicking, and you see it reacting to the world around it, even though it's still inside her.

Yeah, I can only imagine what that feels like.

Like yeah, but maybe that's only women that have chosen to have the baby, right?

1:03:24

So like but then you have women that lose the babies to though they have souls, you know.

So it's it gets I mean it's obviously all conjecture so it's like whatever.

But, you know, that whole arguing at on either side, I think is you just kind of go down a rabbit hole because you don't know you, nobody knows at the end of the day.

1:03:43

Anyway, so it's kind of Beside the point.

Trying to make the argument that like, like, well, they have a soul, and you're killing a soul.

It's like, do they?

I don't know.

Marvin's point is pretty, like, I understand it because it's like, he's basically saying like it's the woman's body and she can have her choice and just own up to what you're doing.

1:04:01

Mmm, right.

That's basically what you're saying.

Yeah, there's women online who brag about how many they've had as if it's like, how many abortions they've had.

Okay, that's horrific.

Yeah, that's a g.

I've heard this argument before and I don't know enough data on it, but I'm like, do women.

Use abortion as a form of birth control because if so then I just becomes like all we're talking higher order thinking here and that's just basically like well I just didn't have time to get a condom and abortion clinics free anyways so any who wants to pay?

1:04:28

Trojans are really going up in price these days.

So I'm just going to have an abortion and then that just feels like so utterly immoral to me.

Yeah.

I just don't know to what effect that actually happens.

Like, how many is there a status says, women who get abortions?

Are more likely to have more abortions.

Yeah.

1:04:45

Is it well?

But isn't it like, you know so I guess you know what we should have had a woman come on the show, but like isn't it a isn't it a problem?

Having like I mean, it's not, it's not like, you're just going in and getting like a, you know, going on the treadmill for her half an hour, like it's like you're going in as a medical procedure, isn't it?

1:05:04

Like, or is it so easy now?

Like I whenever it is it is a day.

So yeah, yeah.

So it's you know, some investment of time and I do know people have had two or three abortions because they were Us being risky, right?

You know, yeah.

And there is a stat to I was reading that 54 ish percent of women who get pregnant, had used some form of contraception that same month so they like to counter my point there they are trying to not get pregnant it just sort of happened, right?

1:05:34

Right.

But then I will go.

Well, that means 46% weren't right.

You know, 144 6% is a pretty large number when you doing of life and death.

Yeah like I think that's pretty callous to use.

No birth control or abortion of his birth control.

1:05:51

I wonder if that's talk about offloading personal responsibility.

Yeah.

To your tier 2, your soul into the universe to life and Sprite, you know.

So well what about like contraception?

That is there an argument to be made there?

Like maybe we just go full Catholic Church?

1:06:07

I mean there's no you know I guess you don't have like a fully fertilized egg at that point so you can see Be like, okay, you kind of blocked it but it gets deep because it is still a form of life.

Semen is a form of life, you know, is it's not you never have the same in, in the egg semen lives matter.

1:06:27

It's and you get the unique DNA, but it's the, like the first step of a new human is when you have a unique set of DNA with a fertile bird egg, if you prevent that from happening, there's no difference in my opinion, between rubbing one out into a Kleenex, or into a condom.

1:06:45

Yeah, I spoke like I don't know.

This might be a or not may not work, but is it is when you plant a seed in the soil, is it an autonomous plant at that moment or only ones that actually gives birth to a fresh tomato?

Right point?

Do you say if I pull this out it is no longer like what there's this.

1:07:03

Hmm.

Thank you said it might be a really complicated answer or an exceedingly, simple answer.

Well who's to say?

This is a bigger question.

So like and who's to say that?

Souls are one size fit.

All right?

Like who's to say that there isn't small souls and big souls and then it's not an evolving process.

1:07:23

Like you got soul brother.

Yeah watch is Alia.

Lots of.

Yeah.

But you get, but you see what I mean?

So you may be like you know because you always think like okay you know, you don't want to eat any, I don't know.

So sometimes I'm talking.

I feel like somebody's listening this and it's just like like my God, this guy is like just fucking ignorant or Al or just so like But, you know, you get like like a little, you know, when I see people protesting like, you know, vegetarians don't want to, you know, eat meat.

1:07:55

It's to me.

And then, you know, you get vegans who want to kind of tilt, you know, bring it back even more like no milk and etcetera.

But like, at what point is it like, you know, like lettuce is alive at some point.

You know what I mean?

Like, vegetables are alive to so like we're is the dmarc there, you know?

1:08:14

No.

And this is just always eating itself.

Yeah.

Like there's a well there's a whole like organic evolution to life itself.

So it's like, you could say, sorry.

I watched an Invasion of the Body Snatchers the other night again and it's a really scary movie, that was probably the first truly scary movie I saw.

1:08:36

And I was probably like late 70s, on television.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And if I don't think I've ever watched it since, but it stuck in my mind, right?

Right.

I feel like sometimes we have interest.

I wouldn't say more interesting conversations, but we have interesting conversations in the breaks during our during our shooting here.

1:08:58

And it's, it's unfortunate because I was like, I feel like I'm often coming on here and saying, like anyway, we were just talking about and it's like some, you know, some topic that sounds, you know, that was actually touched on a lot of good points, but I want to kind of bring it back up.

1:09:14

But there was one where like I think we've all known, you know, anecdotally.

And you know, I mean, even with you guys, I don't know whether you've had abortions or whatever and, you know, it's a very private thing.

Like you don't go around generally advertising it, but I would imagine it would be something that people have mixed feelings about even if you were, you know, if you're young and you had an abortion and then like got older and it's like oh maybe maybe I shouldn't have or or maybe you're just looking at your kid one day and you're just like I had that decision to make you know eight years ago.

1:09:44

And I just wish I just made the wrong one.

Like I don't know if that's even a thing.

You never hear parents kind of complaining about their kids to that level, but maybe they think it but I think there is something to be said for and this is something that happened sort of off camera a few minutes ago.

1:10:04

We were talking about somebody who, you know, Marvin, you were your Somebody went to school with her, a couple people.

You went to school with and yeah, there was actually two girls that I went to school with.

Who?

For sure.

We're faced with that decision because they must have been 17 at the time and they were pregnant and they ended up having the kid and, you know, you see their Facebook posts, five years after that.

1:10:26

And they just seemed like they were the happiest out of anyone in school and they had their careers delayed if not stopped entirely.

One thing I will say about them is they seemed to have a good support structure.

They had grandparents that looked like they were there and would help out with that.

1:10:42

So, there was some, so some balance there in there.

ABS.

But yeah, I mean, just anecdotally.

It looks like the to that kept their children seems to be pretty happy.

Well, you know, there are they do they have like husbands or boyfriends that still stood by them or one did not one got pregnant with a another student at the school, they never Stay Together by I'm assuming, he's paying support of some sort and then the other The other did eventually get married to the guy that had the baby with her, but I think that was inevitable.

1:11:19

They just seemed like a good couple and how old would he be now They're probably 3334 right now.

So like I was saying like I think you know, they went through their dark period, let's say it was hard.

They their life got stopped kind of like covid for the last two years.

1:11:36

You know y'all don't have a baby in your next two to five years.

You're you know, baby formulas and diapers and not going to nightclubs or may be able to continue your education, what not?

But now they've reaches other point where of the transaction, let's call it.

We're all their pain was front-loaded early in life when they have the naive energy to get through it and They're at this moment where they can really enjoy their child and they have a full life in front of them.

1:12:00

Like if that child is a person, you're going to love.

Let's call it.

The most of any other human being in the world.

When in just then stand to reason, the more years you get to love them.

The happier your life will be right.

If you have a child when you're 40 and then you get terminally ill at 65.

1:12:16

You only have 25 years to know your child of which they were only an adult for like seven or eight years.

Yeah, you know, as opposed to having a child when You're 20 and I say you live to 80 and now you've got to know your child as an adult for the better part of 40, 50 years.

1:12:32

It's it's a completely different experience in your own life and to that child's life to know their parent, not just as a parent but as surely as, like a friend, and as another, just a human on this Earth traveling together, like I love the fact, my parents had me at 20 and 24, so my mom is I'm 49.

1:12:49

She's 69 years old, like I know her for all her faults is just a human now, not just A bomb anymore, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's my father.

Yes.

Him.

And of course, that seems like an impenetrable a large gap.

When you're like 14 years old, by the time, he had like 30 and 35 like they're not that much older.

1:13:07

Yeah.

And it creates this Bond.

Like you're not that much different, you know, how much different and the trends and how you interpret the changes in the world.

You actually more closer align because there's not as much an age gap between you.

Yeah.

It's like a generational overlap whereas like somebody like Trump as a kid when he's like 65 like I was the kid ever going to.

1:13:24

To talk to him about anything.

Yeah, the world is changed three times over.

Let's say in Trump's lifetime alone, so he's likely at least three or four gaps away from understanding of the way, the thought processes of his own child, you know, true.

Yeah.

Like, you know, I hate so I guess I want to make sure that this is like for, you know, as far as I'm concerned.

1:13:45

This is almost like, it's interesting to look like I, you know, I would say anecdotally as well.

Like I you do hear about Children being Lisa.

So, like none of us have children.

That's funny though that we're doing this show like this but like I know everybody that I have spoken to about this they as at least some level of yes.

1:14:07

This injected at a significant amount of meaning into my life like having this kid and motivation.

Yeah.

And like like statistically there are more successful than people without kids.

Interesting.

Yeah because of fire under your butt.

Yeah maybe just to support certain people, certainly not all people.

1:14:24

But yeah, I could see like he finally became the man.

He was supposed to be because he had children, right?

It's and subconsciously.

What does that do to your boss to seeing like a family photo on your desk?

Yeah, it probably promotes you.

It's like a, you know, the they're part of the team at home.

1:14:41

They're part of the team here.

They're a team player that kind of thing.

Just like we're stable just like getting a degree in University, just means.

Well, here's the to me, here is a person who did something relatively difficult for a period of time of a significant period of time.

Yeah, if yours, who didn't give up, got through it and actually finished with somewhat decent marks.

1:15:00

That is a well-rounded individual, it can take on projects and see them through.

Yeah, I think that want that kind of person from my business doesn't really matter the skill.

Set is almost like a passport of a personality test.

Can you handle stress for this period of time and see a project through because you'll learn whatever skills you need on the job.

1:15:16

Anyways, so having a family picture is also like, well, that's another degree.

You have to learn how to negotiate with your spouse, and your children and afford.

To pay for them and create a whole other business project.

Let's say on this side.

If they can do that, they can probably do something of the same for my company.

1:15:32

Yeah.

Well, the implication there is also like, you need more to survive, then some Bachelor, right?

Like I don't have a wife or kids right now.

So I if I were to guess, my boss is probably think like, hey, we can afford to pay this guy less.

Yeah, yeah, there's there's, there's got to be some something to that like Yeah, it's also I think you get into because the Executive Suite seems to tend to be older.

1:15:59

Obviously they're just because you know more experience or whatever they are also more likely to have kids or a family and then thus identify more with people like younger generation that does have kids.

It's like, okay, you've hit this next thing.

1:16:14

You know, you've leveled up to this amount.

So like, kind of more on an equal footing and we can go to like barbecues together, something in our kids, don't can play.

So the like a bonding kind of thing.

What do you think?

Actually, just as a little bit off topic, but these days because your Marvin yet sort of a generation younger than Dimitri and I what is your experience in terms of like you and your ilk, I guess, like like your age group, demographic or whatever, is there a big difference in how?

1:16:49

Like, when you think of like having a family?

That like how does is that something that is of primary importance to your generation, you know, speaking on behalf of a whole generation or is it something that you know, I guess it would depend on sort of, the sort of subgroups, that you would associate with and this, and that because like, it's obviously not one size, fits all.

1:17:09

But, you know, I'm just curious.

If there's been a big change in that 45, I really can't speak for my generation.

I'd say I'm an outlier.

I want a huge family.

I want like Seven kids.

And when I tell people that immediately that the first thing that comes to mind is like the financial aspect of it they think like how are you going to support 12?

1:17:29

You want seven and I'm like yeah I don't it'll sort itself out.

Like I really feel like you have a kid lights, a fire under your ass and then that multiplies with every kid that you have and I don't know.

It's like it's, you're just like a money-making machine thing fresher.

Yeah.

If you want to be successful in a couple of kids.

1:17:46

Yeah.

But the more pressure you put on to yourself either, you know, sink or swim and it just Motivates you to start swimming a lot harder.

I mean, I wouldn't disagree.

I don't, I don't understand.

When they say, well, you know, the nuclear family today.

Two kids, it'll cost you like a million dollars, by the time they're 18.

1:18:03

Like, that's just such a grossly High number.

Most of the world lives on like, you know, to $3 a day and here we are like you need a million to raise two kids, right?

You know, I understand costs but we're getting a little luxurious in our lifestyles kids off to Summer Camps all the time for several weeks.

Like it isn't the 70s anymore.

1:18:20

We just played with your big will outside.

And Mom, just look out the window and gave you popsicles, right?

It wasn't that big of an expenditure.

And it most people go back to think that was kind of the best period.

And we named Western Civilization.

Yeah.

So I don't buy this whole, everything needs to cost like I've friends and people.

1:18:36

I know that just will take off to very expensive vacations.

They go to Calgary and stay inside a cabin in the summertime.

Okay?

That sounds nice.

Why we're just going to take some walks for very expensive trip.

You know, it was the mountings either thing though.

1:18:52

You know, but I just grew up to.

I mean I'm just saying if you want to have seven kids, I think there is a financial way of achieving it.

Right?

You know if you want to have these Mountain trips.

Yes.

Then that will factor into seven tickets, a bigger place to rent.

Blah blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, but it doesn't need to go that way.

1:19:08

We're just kind of geared up a society that we got something to achieve like you're gonna have better Instagram photos or something like that off that kind of trip right our family trips, I don't think I've been on an airplane and we grew up a lot of love and very successful small.

We business in a nice neighborhood.

1:19:23

I think I hadn't been on an airplane that didn't go back to my father's home country until like 25 or something.

Oh yeah, I was going on a plane.

I was going to Greece, right?

Right.

And it was fantastic.

Give me six months and you're six weeks there as he friends and family and swim and it's a great time.

1:19:39

That's all the vacation.

I really needed to know, so there are ways to do it, you know, I just don't.

It depends on how you want to gear your life, but you're right, that the type of life that is promoted, most is not the lifestyle that you there.

Your Trying to tell people you want and that's why you're throwing them a curveball.

1:19:57

Yeah, I think yeah you hear a lot these days about you know, there's a real focus on I guess there's always been a focus on money but it's like sort of what makes a good life what makes life worth living and one of those big, one of the big things that always comes up is been having kids.

1:20:17

And, you know, for me, I like to think like this conversation is almost not about, you know, the legality of it is like the woman can still choose whatever she wants but like what would make a woman or a couple like fundamentally happy.

1:20:33

Would it make you like?

I mean I don't know how much we want to start getting into. the whole you start talking about feminism or something, but it's like, you know, this 5th Wave feminism but our and again, I think we did go, there would be very difficult to have this conversation without having a woman on this show so we'll probably we would need to do that but I am curious like it just It is a life-transforming experience, having kids from all given, all, you know, anecdotal evidence.

1:21:06

And there almost seems to be a push against it with a lot of the younger Generations.

These days like you know whether it's because they think that the Earth is, you know, it's a, the world is so horrible with, like they would have a climate reading at some point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:21:21

What having having the freedom?

Yeah.

It's my God.

Yeah, and I could even see if we're getting to, like boss, The autonomy, like the good use the more of a push like good people.

Don't have children, right?

Yeah.

You're a breeder.

There is a certain sub sections of society that already called people who live in The Burbs and have kids breeders, right.

1:21:40

I get a very derogatory sort of way.

Yeah.

And it doesn't have to be a law.

I can just become like, just a cultural norm.

Yeah, well, I remember, even when we were younger like it was I would think that, you know, it seemed to be like you thought anybody was having a kid, you know?

1:21:58

When I was in school like University or whatever it would be like like, oh the if, you know, I don't want to say any names here, but like, there's some people that we went to school with would have kids and I was like, kind of right away and it's like, oh, okay, so they're just throwing their life away.

Like, you know, why did you even go to school?

You know, but, you know, looking back again, it kind of comes back to what Marvin was saying or it's like, you know, those people like if you talk to them now like they seem pretty happy and you know, maybe it's maybe it's just all a facade but I think it does.

1:22:24

It really does.

Distill some meaning into people's lives doing this.

And I think it's it's almost like Society wants to convince themselves that that that meaning doesn't exist and that they that, you know, like you'd be happier just you know, having a really high-paying job and just going out and like traveling everywhere and sleeping with a bunch of different people and like, you know, and we can debate.

1:22:50

I'm not as you saying that that's not just like a, even a an even better lifestyle.

I'm just saying that, you know, Know, when you talk about life, like what makes a good life?

Like I think that you know, people on their deathbed.

Like it's usually usually one of the things they kind of relate to is like their kids or their, you know, their family and you know kind of casting it aside or relegating it to being almost like a kind of parochial you know, Viewpoint to want to have a family is probably a sad.

1:23:30

Corollary to the society we live in now and I just think it's probably a bad thing for for people to think.

Yeah, I would say there's something in society these days.

Like, the vibe I get said, if you're going to self-actualize and become the person, you were always meant to be that path will include not having children.

1:23:47

Hmm.

You moved up the corporate ladder.

You got a you know several phds you made six figures for numerous decades and that sort of thing which you're just very hard to achieve.

Eve, when you're investing a significant amount of time and energy and having a family.

1:24:02

Yeah.

And so therefore that becomes sort of like the, you know, like the Antiquated sort of way of doing things, you know.

Yeah.

And it's a shame because I, he inevitably, nobody will say, I think, in their last year's of life that I wish I had made more money or moved up a higher ladder.

1:24:19

Yeah, it really is about propagating love, you know, and knowledge.

Perhaps, you know, leaving that behind leaving something to you can leave behind to the Earth.

You know.

Yeah and you know in fulfilling your potential, I think a lot of people have sort of a drive for something particular that there have a real passion for like, you know, Elon Musk wanted to go tomorrow is like this, you know, a pretty Valiant, you know.

1:24:45

It's a big idea of being something that he wants to do, but it's like and I think a lot of people have different versions of that and that's important to pursue to, but I can't help.

But feel that maybe maybe a lot of people don't have.

Like the replaced, they're not replacing the having a family with like some other big ideal.

1:25:03

It's just it's almost like nihilism.

Like it's like they want to they just what they wanted to or Hedonism rather like well, he still had time to have 120 kids.

Yeah, you know he managed to do both but not everybody can.

Yeah.

Okay, you guys are in your 40s.

1:25:23

Do you ever wish that you had kids when you were younger?

Good question.

I could have emotionally totally had him at 22 23.

Like I'm not that different from that age, just to maybe a little more wise or whatever.

But it's your could I have had them at that age.

1:25:40

I think I would have preferred it if you just met the right person.

Yeah, I think it's all about the partner.

Did you have the support structure from your family at that point two?

Oh yeah, I did.

Would have been there.

Okay.

Maybe even more.

So because they were younger.

Yeah, there are more robust to be able to help.

You know, I couldn't leave at this age.

1:25:56

Now, my parents in the early 70s when they believe like, Born with some or something, they wouldn't be I just did be too overwhelming for them and also write even a toddler will be too energetic.

Okay.

But in this hypothetical your it's with a partner of that you love that your see yourself getting married to.

1:26:11

What if it was just a one-night stand and a single Parenthood kind of thing or like for example, a girl that you slept with that, you just met came back to a couple weeks later and said, I'm pregnant.

Would you still want to have that kid back then?

1:26:27

Or would you probably just, I think back then?

I don't know what I would have done.

I don't think I've ever really like, I like the idea of having kids but if I'm honest with myself and, you know, time just has a way of sort of figuring things out for you.

If you don't take any action like I've sort of by default don't have kids and I don't feel strongly enough about it one way or the other.

1:26:50

The like, you know, I have big, I'm a very selfish person in the sense, That like I have things I want to do and Achieve on my own that don't involve kids and I think from every thing I hear is like kids take up an inordinate amount of time.

And you know why like them they're no fun little humans and all but it's not I don't think I've ever even if it's only subconscious ever been willing to sacrifice the my own time for there's I could have done it but I much prefer to be with a partner.

1:27:20

It's just it's I really you know it's twice as hard when you're on your own.

Yeah.

And it's already hard.

Enough with two people.

So I can only imagine doubling the costs in the effort and everything else.

And, you know, running a business and it would be very hard.

But if you met the right person to then a very simple algorithm, if I'd met the right person, a younger age, could I have had kids and I've still found all the things I wanted to achieve in life and maybe more except children would have been happy.

1:27:47

I could have been but it's just depends on your personal temperament, you know.

I grew up in a big family.

It likes a big family as my parents sacrificed a lot for their family.

I saw that their sacrifice is actually made them happy and to this day if I go and ask him what are your happiest years of your life?

1:28:04

It always goes back to when me and my two brothers were toddlers, take between three and ten like those were the best years.

I think they also associate those years with them being young to write parents.

So they're like, you know, we were looking good and we had a nice house in The Burbs and the kids and I'll watching you guys play and grow and develop in the Boomer.

1:28:21

And each child is funny in their own ways by far.

My parents will always come back to those were the happiest years, that's anecdotal but it's pretty potent.

I'm seeing my cousin right now.

You're seeing her, as I'm seeing her in on conversations, going in a completely different to see my cousin and her husband are in there.

1:28:41

I would say you're early, really, early 40s at this point, their kids are they range from about 12 to 8?

They have four kids and they're approaching the The age where their interests and hobbies are starting to align with.

There's so, for example, like the dad is a real Sports guy, he plays a lot of soccer and all the kids love playing soccer.

1:29:00

So they're getting to that age and skill level where they can actually play with him.

Right that I think that's like where the dividends start paying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For sure.

I mean you know for you know I feel personally like if I you know there will probably I'm sure at some point in my life will be like maybe I should have had kids because I'll regret not having that Bond or Like even now to some extent like I just found out yesterday that my brother is having twins and like part of me was like, hmm, I like that's part of me wants to sort of its big do, right?

1:29:37

He's the first of the brothers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He is.

So it's like, you know, now he's my mom's favorite, which was always my role.

But yeah, I part of me was like, you know, you know, I'm thrilled.

Be an uncle, but part of me was thinking, like, you know, I wonder like, you know, quite I guess questioning decisions I made whether I, whether I actually want kids or I don't know, it's almost takes like, a an event like that to start to start questioning some things where you're like, I mean, it's all hypothetical until it kind of, you know, actualizes in something and then it's like, oh, okay.

1:30:15

I've seen photos.

And, you know, they're going to be having two babies soon were like planning for Christmas.

You know where they're going to go and this.

That it's like, oh okay.

So it's a real thing.

And then I started thinking like, oh well you know what have I done?

You know, when I think of like the to make this into like some sad story about my life, but like, you know, what have I actually achieved all the things I wanted to achieve?

1:30:35

Or am I just now?

Like middle-aged?

And I just don't have any kids, like it's gonna lose out on both gonna be validation or it's going to be your biggest regret.

No based on how?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

The safe bet is doing what everybody's always done for thousands of years.

Yeah, that's the safe bet.

1:30:51

Right as good as you could hit blackjack or yeah, like it's one or the other, but at the same time, it's like, you know, it's not, you know, there are plenty of people who don't have kids that are still happy.

There are plenty of people who, you know, many life, you know, people go in many different directions.

1:31:07

And it's not to say that there's not like, I mean, like not everybody can have kids not like, I don't know, maybe I can't have kids, you know?

I mean there's been some situations where I was like like thought maybe I could have and then I found out everything was okay and I was like, oh, like really happy but now I'm like, well.

Be, you know, that joy that we're talking about that, hypothetical Joy, but having a child and adding meaning to your life.

1:31:28

Perhaps your role in this, you know, this whole thing isn't to have your own children, but maybe your brother will need that Uncle to lean on.

Yeah.

And everything you could have achieved from having your own children.

You will be able to achieve by being there as like super Uncle.

Yeah, you know, or maybe you just feel the need to do that and therefore it be, you become super Uncle because you never had your own kids, I could be both working.

1:31:51

Together, the uncles are nice hedge.

Like it's like the boat.

You don't, you don't want to be the guy who owns the boat.

You just want to write friends with him.

Yeah.

Or the truck and you can really get out everything out of your soul.

That's looking for from this and help someone else, which is your nephews or nieces, let's call them.

1:32:07

And your brother in a way that just no one else can really help your the uncle that's just, they're always putting a positive spin on things.

Well, if you had your own kids, maybe wouldn't be able to be there for him and he might need your help especially when you're twins.

Right, right.

Like you said, you would give enough time to a situation Asian sometimes like the the way things are supposed to turn out if you're if you're at least cognizant of watching, it sort of play out in front of your eyes will show itself.

1:32:31

I know, like, I have a brother, and I'm there for his two children, my two little nieces and it's, um, he's going to need help and I think I can help him, right, and it will help me in turn and you always speak.

So glowingly about your, you know, your nephews and cousins loves of my life.

I just like another day, getting old enough that they have their humor and their quirky and right.

1:32:50

It's their thoughts from Their own heads as they interpret the world around them.

The most fascinating thing, you know, right.

So it's yeah.

It's you can find that even if you can't have your own kids, maybe not to the same degree, but it's not a dead end Road, right?

If you truly matters to you, you'll find a way to get that at.

1:33:08

You can be, you know, join big brothers or something.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

There's a way to get that out of you, right?

The yeah, there's other ways of having like, you know, I know there's, you know, it gets a special bond with the bylaw biological kid, but, you know, you can always adopt, you can always have like, some way of Sometimes you can have your own kids and like, you know, the kid might be more like one of the uncles.

1:33:31

Yeah.

Jeans are a funny thing like that, right, right.

Not connect with your own children sometimes, you know?

Yes, it is a bit of a crapshoot.

Yeah.

Sometimes like this one looks just like Grandpa, you know?

You do get that too.

So the fact that it's even within your familial Circle only like, you know, increases the chances of you finding what they need and what you need.

1:33:49

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Do you think us owning pets sort of?

Satisfies that maybe a small parental urge that we have.

Yeah, I do.

I mean, I know that that's like, I know, I know it's not the same thing, like, but there is, there's this.

1:34:04

There is a smaller element that like, I mean, it's there's something there.

You just, we're getting a dog and I don't have kids, and I feel so cliche and like, I'm like, you know, I'm the hairdresser drives a smart car, no kids and has a dog, you know, there's and I love paradoxal things.

People that throw you curveballs, like I never knew John judging you from the outside.

1:34:20

You were into these sort of things.

Yeah.

But at the same time, you like It's love, you know, and like I'm going to give it love.

It's going to give us love.

Yeah.

Who am I to deny love?

You know.

Yeah, more love is just more love.

So I just ride with that and he won't be borrowing money home for you all the time.

1:34:35

No.

It might cost you some money.

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

And you'd have to be willing to do that.

Yeah, that's a sacrifice that people do have to make who are pet owners as well.

Yeah.

What was the initial question now?

You said s being in our 40s?

Do we have regrets not having children?

1:34:51

Yeah, when you were a lot younger, likely, Late teens, early 20s.

Mmm.

Yeah, no.

I'm it just happens that just happens and you have to just accept what happens as it comes to you.

I think you have to accept when you're 20 and have a child out of, like, I say out of wedlock and you have to accept if you waited too long, you know, it's just a crapshoot.

1:35:12

Yeah.

How do you, how do you think you would feel if you got your forties and you just never met the right person?

Would you fall into?

I do see this, sometimes, I get this vibe that sometimes people hit their 40s and they just all of a sudden people who are very careful about.

Not trying to get pregnant or get someone pregnant, get somebody pregnant or end up, right?

1:35:31

And like is that the subconscious kicking in going?

Well, I better just pick someone and get on with it.

I didn't wanna have a child out of wedlock in my 20s.

But now, my 40s, I'm willing to accept that because this is just mean, So much to me.

Yeah because you would think in your 20s he'd be more likely to be less careful.

1:35:48

So so so for that same person to make it through the danger years and now have that happen in their 40s.

Feels like to me, it was sort of like a planned accident, right?

You see a lot of that too.

I'm actually in my early 30s and very recently, I just had the urge to want to start a family and I don't know why.

1:36:07

A year ago, not even a year ago.

I didn't want to but I just recently I'm like shit I want kids now.

Yeah, biological things matter, your jeans making off, you know, Yeah, I yeah, I never had that same feeling but it wasn't that I was so strong the other way.

1:36:25

I think it really does come down to like your partner and like, it's not like I've been with people that I like didn't love and you know, still am but like and you know, it depends on what they want to do to and what you know the mutual decision is but I I guess I could say like I could conceive of a situation like, my partner was, you know, really really wanted them.

1:36:44

And it was like this, you know, if he came like I could I could buy I didn't want to puppy it first.

Other but you know, we rescued dog and unlike I'm happy we did.

So I mean one of the things that probably contributed to my mind being changed was when my grandmother was going through dementia.

1:37:02

And Alzheimer's, I saw the way that my mom was taking care of her and her final years and then I thought like what happens when you're 70 or 80 going through that and you have no kids to take care of you.

I thought that would be terrible because then my grandma ends up going to like a Not a hospital.

1:37:20

It is called a hospice like a lumber yard for long-term care and it was people in there that were just like Ward's of the state, basically.

Like it was just these random nurses, who didn't know them that were taken care of them.

They had no family to take care of them.

I'm sure the service they got was crap.

1:37:37

They probably just laid in their own feces, until they died like soon after.

And I was just like, well, I don't know if it's that bad.

I mean, some of them are pretty bad.

They get like rashes and shit from not being cleaned properly and Like, I don't want to die like that.

I mean, I figure I like I'm personally I just think like, I would be I've never really worried about that but I can see how that would be really sad for somebody going through that.

1:38:03

I always just think I would just be pumped full of drugs and be okay with that like just, you know, or just be so far gone.

It's like whatever let me do a little something like, but maybe that's naive.

I like I had a grandparent who you know she was never Like she was in a long-term care facility but like, we went to see her all the time and it was it didn't seem that bad there.

1:38:26

Like it seemed like, you know, it's like it's just not that much fun to go into like a place where there's a bunch of elderly people, some of whom are quite sick, like, you know, like they, but they have activities, they have things.

Like, you know, you meet with the people.

I'm not saying that the, you know, the nurses aren't like, overworked or maybe some of them are resentful or whatever.

1:38:44

And hopefully that isn't ever manifest in like, you know, any kind of abuse or anything but, like, I don't know.

Is it worth its cultural to?

I think it's like, it depends.

Yeah.

From my not during Corona, like, Greece didn't have much of a, and it's great.

They had a very strict lockdown, like very strict, but they didn't have the deaf's, like, their neighboring, Italy did because they're actually Greece, doesn't have a culture of long-term care homes.

1:39:07

So, a lot of the outbreaks, like, whatever number we floating is a 60, 70 % of the outbreaks were in Long-Term Care Homes generally speaking.

Yeah, here in Canada.

They didn't have that in Greece because people don't really live in Long-Term Care Homes, it's the culture, they're just single Ali households going legit multi-generational, you generally get stuff like that or they do build a lot of these two three story condos and then typically maybe the grandparents live on one floor and the in-laws live in a different floor and then their kids live on a different floor and so there's interaction throughout the building.

1:39:34

But um, they're all in their own separate condos.

So you just pop in, make sure they're okay, walk down a few steps, you go back to your condo, that kind of thing.

So it's great because in doors are always kind of kept open anyway, you have to buzz to get in but within the condo because it's just all family people just kind of oscillate up and down.

I would have thought He was like that too.

1:39:50

They just hear it was also in the north and I think the north is a little more Central Europe rather than the south of Ireland.

So, I would assume without ever being there, south of Italy might be a culturally a lot more aligned with Greece as opposed to the more like, as you're bordering like, you know, Switzerland and Austria and stuff like that heathens.

1:40:06

Yeah.

Little colder up there.

Hey, you're the helps.

So, I'm just kind of, you know, this is a very stereotypical thing, but I think that's I think culture plays a role harder though to as you know, children of immigrants in this country though in De to be able to recreate that, like, even like the physical structure of buildings is different.

1:40:23

And how do you work at the cost of the buildings?

But, yeah, culturally I wouldn't ever want to go into retirement home.

They wouldn't want my parents in there and I would move Heaven and Earth to do whatever I can to look after them until it's just beyond my cup capabilities.

Yeah.

It while, I mean and that's what happened in our case was like I mean, like I said like we went to visit my Nan's like all the time.

1:40:43

It was just and you know she for all intense purposes could like she actually kind of thrived in many ways because Meet friends are she's very social, but it became more a case of worrying.

What would happen when nobody was there.

And like, you know, you had to have somebody always there just in case so, but yeah, I wouldn't want my.

1:41:03

That being said, I wouldn't ever want my parents and I've heard it on the flip side to like, if they could to the counter your point, Marvin, like what, a burden to place on your children that they have to look after you, when you get older, you know, it's like some people say, well, I don't, you know, it's such a like almost greedy that you almost planting the See that in the future.

1:41:20

I have long-term care helpers.

If you have seven kids that's they can just barely see it.

Yeah, very good point strategizing.

Yeah, but if there's only one or two and there's no guarantee that even live in the same country, never mind Province or be close to you.

Yeah, yes, it's pretty popular in the Indian Community right now is to have multi-generational families in Canada and there's pros and cons to it.

1:41:42

But I mean, like, it just seems like a net positive to me, especially with the housing prices nowadays.

Oh yeah, yeah, I am a Of the lifestyle completely.

Just, it's align more closely to my worldview.

Let's say.

Family's important is a social structure and you don't you might end up bonding with your great-great grandchild or something though.

1:42:03

Really unique way.

You know, that's what the makes those magical little story sometime actually you know, I think we should probably wrap it up, but I've something to say that I was going to ask you about or your better half about actually.

But so my partner has gone into a lot of genealogy stuff lately and she's really been researching it.

1:42:25

My dad is really into it too.

So he kind of got Are going with it or whatever, but but she's just obsessive over it now and she ended up finding a bunch of second cousins that she has living like around the world and some she just found out, I was like maybe a couple weeks ago that they lived in Argentina Buenos Aires and she started talking to him over zoom and it's you know, her cousin and then his daughters and they're all they're all on the call and all talking as if it was like they didn't skip a beat like they're their English was good though.

1:42:56

One guy.

I like her actual cousin is more just Spanish.

Like he I think he can understand but he can't speak as well but the other tourists like fluent English and and really like the conversation, I was just there for some of it but like it was very flowy, very like like there wasn't like you know sometimes you have a conversation with somebody in a doesn't is not a first language and it's like kind of awkward about getting the jokes but genes matter like, you know, there's a certain like, you know, your brain is hardwired in a certain way and people just seem to understand you.

1:43:25

Yeah.

And you get that from Familia.

And actions.

Yeah, you can, you know I have this for, you know, amongst my own family like oh yeah.

You know when you head up north and you take the road that goes left and right and one brother, be like, what do you mean like East or West?

Meanwhile, the other brothers like oh I totally know what you're talking about right now and like you kind of just because you're not being so careful in your wording.

1:43:42

But you don't need to be because, you know, the other person just sort of intuitively understands you, right?

So yeah, I've experienced that to the big family, too.

Yeah, yeah.

Just sit down, we haven't seen each other in two years to come to covid, but I don't once we get to the table, the banter and the talking, and the humor, and the What did you think of the last two years?

1:43:59

And we haven't really talked about any of it.

Are you Pro masker?

Anti-vaxxer or whatever?

Yeah, I'm sure the banter will be flowing.

Like we haven't missed a minute.

Like we're literally in like March, 20 2010 to figure out like what doesn't right, right up again.

Yeah, I think it's funny story started with abortion.

1:44:15

We're ending with like family, but it's all the same.

All the same.

Yeah, I guess.

Well, it's making a decision.

Actually, I don't, I don't know if this is something I should say or not, but maybe I'll just cut it out.

Fuck if I, you know, if it's a problem but like, you know.

1:44:31

So we found out yesterday that my brother and his wife are pregnant and had with twins.

And like the way it was revealed was it was like a Mother's Day, host Mother's Day celebration because my mom had covid last week.

So we had to postpone it but it was very she's like nine weeks along or something.

1:44:51

And, you know, there's kind of a thing as like a wait until 12 weeks or whatever before you start saying anything.

But You know, they said something and I can't remember if it was her or my brother who said it, but it was like, they said, you know, like you say that because it's, you don't want to kind of advertise it to the world, but we're family and we're telling you because if something does happen, you know, we want you guys to be able to support us as well and I was like that's a really good point.

1:45:15

Like that is why wouldn't you tell us?

You know, like we're all, you know, we would want you to lean on us if you could either way, you know.

Yeah, exactly exactly.

Which is so, you know, kind of nice and You know, hopefully a nice way to end this.

Episode was a little Meandering, and I wonder, I wonder just culturally or like mystically and our intuition.

1:45:34

Why, why do we do this?

Wait, 90 days until you tell somebody something.

I think it's just so you don't want to do a lot of explaining like just because it that's, you know, you might have complications, right?

You're more likely.

Don't I guess so and I don't know the rate of the, you know, babies.

Just some.

Yeah, I don't know though.

1:45:49

No specific reason, I didn't know tying that into like time frames of abortions in like the first trimester.

You know, most people agree if you're going to do it.

That's the timeframe, right?

Yeah.

And also that's also the timeframe.

People don't even want to tell them outside their Inner Circle that they're even pregnant again with.

1:46:05

Yeah, it's a good parallel.

Interesting.

Kind of cultural norm sort of thing.

Yeah, probably is quite Universal around the world.

What time do does the pregnancy become obvious though?

Four months or five?

Yeah, that's a good baby.

1:46:22

Yeah.

At the end of three months, you're like it.

Maybe it becomes That Awkward thing.

Like, do I see Congratulations are going to be slapped in the face.

Yeah, there's something.

I think that might be stuck could be for a future episode.

I think there's something there but just a cultural norms around not saying anything for the first 90 days.

1:46:40

And also most people that's a globally, sort of, okay with an abortion if it's going to happen within the first 90 days.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

Interesting parallel.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm assuming most of the miscarriages do happen in the first trimester, right?

It seems logical to me but I don't know.

1:46:55

Yeah, I mean, what are the airplane traveling?

And all that sort of stuff?

You don't, you know, you don't do too much.

In the first trimester things are taking old is that Yeah, you're not living like you're pregnant.

Maybe like you just, you're still drinking and no here.

I don't think so.

I mean she wasn't.

I want to say name so like my brother's wife.

1:47:14

I don't think you're supposed to drink during that time.

Or, you know, if you know confusion, hormonal me, where your body's like time for the period And I just like flushes according to her like she knew like, I mean, her body has changed.

I don't talk about your body changing but like, yeah, I mean, I don't know.

1:47:32

I think that that is just an important.

Yeah, like kind of takes hold or something like that.

All right, well, let's say goodbye then thanks for listening.

I know it was a bit of a rambling episode in terms of all the topics we sort of touched on but I think is an important one to do just because of the the Roe versus Wade potential for overturning here and Marvin it was good to have you on the show.

1:47:58

Hopefully it'll come back for another episode on some other.

Topic Marvelous.

Marvin.

Marvin and yeah, thanks for listening.