02 - The Scarlet Letter

Transcript

really hope that you enjoy the show in this episode we want to take you through our covid19 vaccine decision

path we'd like to illustrate the timeline of events and expose what types of data were influencing our choices

one of the frustrations i've had during this whole experience is being unable to clearly express myself on the spot

particularly when speaking with someone who has already had their presumptions kicked into overdrive upon hearing that

i didn't intend to get the vaccine in my experience in this day and age when two people find each other on

opposite sides of an argument who have been exposed to different and sometimes contradictory information there is no

predisposition to hear the other person out rather the one ostensibly listening will

geffa smirk and otherwise silently judge after already tuning out most of what the other person is saying and begin

formulating their own responses in their heads based mostly off a stereotypical summation of what they assume the other

person's position to be not necessarily what their position

actually is so if i've made a choice not to get the vaccine a plethora of other traits will

have also been assigned to me by the person with whom i'm speaking by virtue of my decision not to get the

vaccine i must subsequently also be selfish right wing a conspiracy theorist

a trump supporter and possibly even a flat earther it matters very little what i say when

attempting to delineate my position because no one who believes that the earth is flat should be taken seriously anyway

which i don't by the way and for the record and so the conversation which has now rapidly evolved into a confrontation

unravels as predictably as you could imagine backs are up platitudes are issued

and feelings of resentment and frustration fester and pop in little passive-aggressive outbursts i truly

think that the long-form podcast format is one of the last vestiges of a civilized democratic society it allows

the podcaster to fully express their ideas and engage with others on a level that is lost in many other forms of

communication yes the ideas only flow one way at least during the podcast itself

but there is no immediate form of rebuttal for those who that have committed to listen

you're forced to listen to the whole story sure you could always flip to something else or even just tune me out while you

spin on your peloton and dream of sun-kissed beaches and tiki huts will my words drift helplessly through your ear

canal and auditory cortex before being jettisoned out of your brain with all the other incidental stimuli

but at the very least ego has been removed from the equation if you're someone who is opposed to these nefarious anti-vaxxers you won't

feel the immediate almost compulsive need to tell me how i'm wrong now i expect that most of you will have

already embarked upon your own journey down the cove vaccine rabbit hole because in the world of ideas so often

like tends to attract like but for those of you that are listening to this who aren't predisposed to sympathize with

our arguments whether you're still on the fence about some stuff or whether you're listening to this despite every fiber of your

being screaming to you that it's all fake news we sincerely thank you for your time and salute you

challenging your own beliefs especially when they've been reinforced by a heady media always eager to pit one segment of

society against the other isn't as easy as it looks in fact i would suspect that by doing

this you're doing something that the majority of people don't do or do only very rarely or after some cataclysmic

awakening after listening to us you may remain unconvinced your mileage may vary and

you may be quite alright with that what we're trying to do is simply show our side we want to explain how we made

the decision we made not because of a lack of adherence to science but rather the opposite because we were following

the very principles on which the scientific method was based we used data logic and analysis to form

our opinions and we never tried to tell anyone else what they should do either for the record

and with that i would just like to say welcome to the show my name is jason and

i'm here with dimitri how are you doing today dimitri hello folks doing really well great to be here so let's get

started i want to uh go through talking about um really like a timeline

of events almost just to sort of sum everything up we're now this is march 20

2022 believe it or not i can't it's the future

at a bit of a crossroads as to where to begin this um you know i think the best way to do this is just to launch right

into like you know um uh you know the the beginning of the pandemic you know those early days when

we started seeing the you know the reports coming in from asia that you know the numbers were up and what is

this new thing and uh could it come to our shores um

uh i think maybe just because who knows when people will be listening to this we

might want to just kind of do almost do a recap and sort of paint a picture um i remember in early 2020 i i went

down to um right around the beginning when it was all starting i think it was maybe january or february maybe january

february and um i had a sick relative in sacramento and i went down and visited

for a week and he passed away while i was there actually and um it was you know coming back going into

the airport on the way back you know it was pretty uh harsh trip but i remember somebody coughing

sort of effusively in the waiting area and i was just like my god i hope this person is on my plane but it had there

hadn't been i think there had been maybe a few cases that had sort of percolated through to the you know western countries but it

was it was really top of mind for me i had been following it since the beginning like you know i'm a big uh

um you know when there's something any kind of apocalyptic situation i'm always i'm always on top of yeah um

and uh but i remember being thinking at the beginning like i want to get back to canada and just to kind of like hunker

down almost i don't want to like be in an airport basically um and you know that was really i think the last time i

have traveled anywhere since you know out of the country uh since then um

so that was my beginning and you know i remember even here uh in toronto um i

there was a point where um you know i stopped i used to take the tdc to work and i i stopped i think as

soon as the first couple cases were in toronto and you know a lot of people called me crazy and i was like you know what like i don't know what this is and

it's just a risk thing you know it's a risk analysis of it where were you in that like where do you

remember that very very similar like again playing the long game and being uh early on a lot of these things

uh initially probably around end of february i started wearing gloves when i

was pumping gas or going to the grocery store grocery store and whatnot and uh you would see the occasional

other person cashing out wearing gloves like oh there's some other people like i'm me here

only one some people it's almost you know in terms of like signaling your tribe like look like-minded people you

know and you saw it sort of percolating through society slowly and i was um very

quick i had a lot of disposable none latex gloves around anyways just to do the nature of my work you know yeah and

it was a very easy entry level and um you know it seemed to be more touch-oriented than respiratory at the

time anyway so you're just like super super careful very early on and uh yeah the story just kept evolving

and i was definitely watching uh globally what was happening you know in countries um

from from japan right through to the middle east uh israel the uk sweden and then you know eventually us we really

were kind of like the last chapter really that um they kind of swept the tsunami of this whole story over us much

much later than other places so i was just trying to stay out of the curve and be really really safe around my loved ones around clients around

anyone i interacted with and uh probably pretty quick on them when you would see people um walking

outside standing too close to another you just kind of look at them and you're like oh that's a little dangerous i don't know about that yeah this is a

little crazy you know there's something going on here guys and um just like i entered the story early i

probably also exited the story a little early too so that's just my my default setting towards things yeah

very much like you just very aware very cautious i'm aware of my surroundings and the news and the virology in the

emerging data and uh you know just being careful in all situations

yeah and you know at the risk of sounding like we're tuning our own horns i mean how do you you know

like there are plenty of things i'm you know don't know about or whatever this just happened to be something i was i took an

interest in because i you know i i you know i really like the movie 12 monkeys yeah like there was a lot of

that kind of uh thing i actually thought it would be hilarious of some 12 monkeys people graffitied around toronto but at

last no one did well a lot of times like these things do start somewhere and a lot of stories will happen and they just

kind of peter out and you're like i guess it never happened here and more times than not they peter out and uh but

i i just kind of sat back and i had the funny vibe just the the flow of information on the news the headlines

and everything like i don't think this is going to be slowing down i think it's actually going to be ramping up well when it hit italy

i think that was sort of the ramifications of that kind of hit home for a lot of people and then at

that time too we were talking about the direct link well there was a fashion week there a week before and they had buyers from all around the world you

know coming in congregating and now spreading back to uh you know taking the virus elsewhere you know trying to figure this out step by step

uh which made you know shutting down the airports early really important too because like okay so the easiest way to

stop it from coming in is to stop anybody from coming in but alas it got in yeah and they caught

in probably despite any you know um it was inevitable that it would have

come in i you know i remember at the time being quite frustrated that the you

know trudeau government didn't shut the airports down sooner for sure they thought that that was and i think new zealand did if i have my facts right

like they i think they were pretty quick on the ball you know you had politics immediately like oh it's politically incorrect and they'll be deemed racist

if you're stopping certain people from like why does a virus care about your race

planet place a and it's landing in place b like that's all it is yeah certainly if it started in toronto uh the virus i

would fully expect other people to not let planes from toronto land absolutely no problem you know

yeah um yeah yeah that's a little that's a little crazy the whole the whole race card early on i remember i was at pelosi

who went to chinatown uh in yeah um you know and sort of declare well like

everybody should be here or whatever she said and it's kind of like well i mean you know like like that's

that's great you wanna extend it right away yeah yeah yeah that's true yeah you know it was like it's not about politics

it's about a virus yet immediately it was all about politics right not all about but there was a ton of politics involved yeah yeah it was and i mean

that was at the height of you know um the sort of trump versus the media thing so there was a lot of you know

that the daily impeachment threats yeah everything like that um so and you remember the nursing homes

how that was a big thing i remember my my grandmother died well fairly recent like a few years before this started but

i just remember thinking she was in a nursing home and like a near the end and it was like i couldn't even imagine like it would be like i you know the people

who had to go through that where they had relatives in nursing homes and obviously the you know people who are in the nursing homes it's like what a

horrible way to go and like what uh you know as you've got this unknown disease and nobody really knows what they're

doing and it's rippling through you know elderly people like right away you could see that

especially in italy and um you know you're really helpless against you know like uh you know you

can't sit with them at the end even helpless for sure but at the same time crack started you know in terms of our

response showing immediately like really if you shut down airplanes right away you're going to

maybe be able to two weeks flatten the curve because you're just stopping all the you know a large amount of the

transmission into your country and that's what i think what got everybody on board yeah um and then of course it

within those two weeks it's still got in the country and percolated percolated and we're all closed here in canada at least 90 days or whatever but um and

then you heard about the response in terms of retirement homes and you could see early on because a lot of people debate this well

in the early days we didn't really know what was happening but even in italy in the north when people were dying they used to say a village a day

you know the age skewing the risk stratification was really towards the elderly

so then you don't know much about this but you're like okay that's interesting let's see where this goes but thank

goodness it's not affecting children to the same rate as those who've had a full life already and um

yeah and then when it came to our response here in canada you saw that people were being diagnosed maybe

hospitalized or whatever but they were sent back to their retirement homes and long-term care homes you're literally

bringing the virus back into the place of which people are the weakest right

and you know we talk about quarantine hotels and separating those who can't be separated from physical distancing that

would have been the perfect moment for something like that to have been initiated yeah yeah yeah and you know hindsight

2020 and everything i i do think that um you know that that was something at least it's almost like if we get the

same thing happen again that would be one of the steps i would hope that you know

i don't even know if that would be you know i in my mind that would be something you know that they would want

to change next time around where it's like immediately sort of protect the people that are the most at risk everything else like have your have your

have your rules or whatever that you want to impose but make that be a separate thing and mostly focus on the people who are most at risk this is

still my concern though and i don't know if we've learned those lessons right you know the sort of one-size-fits-all blanket approach is um seems to permeate

through most of what's going on you know when you get into that line of thinking you drift more in towards the

swedish model or the great barrington declaration you know focused protection targeted you know move heaven and earth

to save the elderly yeah um i i still don't really hear that for the most part coming from our officials right so i

don't know if we were to drift back into that today if we would actually change our approach unfortunately

yeah like with so much of this it isn't even you know you really do wonder what we've

learned you know we've learned about the virus to some extent but in our response to it and how we as a

society sort of responded to it and responded to the subsequent like you know laws or um

you know suggestions um they we i don't think we've learned i think it's we

we are still sort of in a state of um uh

almost like paranoia tribal paranoia and um and

that in itself has been you know quite politicized as well or polarized at the very least yeah i i would agree with you

so you had uh masks the sort of uh you know we came with the social distancing i'm just trying to still you know uh

paint the picture uh so you had social distancing um suggestions and then you know implementation the grocery stores

and everything like that you'd stand in line in no frills or wherever your grocery store of choice um

for for a while and i remember even going in the first time uh into an overalls after this and thinking

like this is great like yeah i waited in line but like i i hated going into crowded grocery stores and now it's like

you have all this like space around you it's it's um it's quite it's quite nice

and i remember thinking like this is how it should always have been like this is like this should be how society is because then i was getting a little

maybe a little puritan in the early days because i'm like this is a virus people are dying like my god you have to do

maximum amount to try to like save life but you would see people waiting in line um and this was before masking was

really in effect and they would be outside of the lcbo and then you know posting on facebook

you know mama still needs her wine sort of thing right like really you need a bottle of wine so bad you're going to

risk a contagion for right you know so you would see like um uh for me like so people not taking it

seriously enough and trying to get on with their life in such a normal what i would think like almost like a secondary

like obviously that's not an essential good for most people you know having them speak for yourself yeah yeah um and

so that kind of stuff was like irking me early on it's like guys this is a this is a disease and it looks like we're

shutting down the planet and business has been closed and you're willing to stand in line for something that's really not all that essential for most

people i found that i found the variance in what people decided like their risk cost

benefit analysis wildly different you know that's interesting because

you know very early on um you know i was taking precautions like you know i wasn't

taking the ttc but i was still it was early on that i was looking at the stats where i was like okay like

you still have a pretty good chance of not dying from this like i you didn't know about long covet or anything like that at that point but i was it was i i

thought you know what i'm i have a i have probably an overweening confidence in my own immune system like you know

i'll be proven wrong for sure at some point like it's just like yeah but not yet but um but i do feel

like i i feel like you know what i you know i never get the flu vaccine this is one of my reasons where you know i didn't want to get the vaccine where

it's like i um you know i've never gotten the flu vaccine or at least if i did it was like you know decades ago

before i was making informed choices and um and there's no real reason

that i haven't been other other than just thinking i don't feel like i need it and i've i see people getting the flu vaccine and they still kind of get sick

and it's like i know that there's different variants that i i'm not um it's not that i don't like get it like i

get why people would want to get a vaccine i just don't think it works for me and i i don't i would rather my uh

you know it's like i'll tell you what like one year maybe i'll get the flu and then i'll change my mind but i haven't so like why would i change something

that seems to be working for decades now um but i do catch the flu quite often

but i just accept it and just go through it all right right yeah yeah so but when this thing came

around i was like okay so it's a bad flu a really bad flu for some people but but from for my part i was like i'm still

gonna go to the liquor store like you know this is not a necessity but it it's um you know i mean it's hard how else do you get

through this thing it's like almost to your point everybody had a very

different anxiety level a different uh lifestyle different living arrangements yeah so again

i was probably approaching it from too much of a strict puritan point of view early on like my god this is literally

like uh defcon 5 now in the virology world yeah and um

but uh i definitely within 30 days could see that different people had different needs and that we had to approach this

i'd been you know to reformulate my thinking yeah to approach this in a much more personalized way and just sort of you know like let

people live to a large degree how they're used to living and how they need to live yeah

yeah and that my judgment was um unfounded and um really i should just be looking at myself and doing what i need

to do to be safe and my immediate loved ones you know yeah yeah yeah i i i would agree with that and um sort of

consistent with uh what i what i think about a lot of things where it's like you know everybody make their own

decisions be informed don't be informed like uh you know but um don't tread on me kind

of thing um we really um getting into uh

you know i think it was late 2020 i remember there being a big

um uh fervor about the vaccines coming out and like we have to we have to

hurry up and produce these and and you know when i first heard about this i was like yeah good like let's get the vaccines

out let's whatever um i at the time didn't know much about how long it generally takes to test these

things or whatever i just thought okay it's going to be rushed for sure and but you know this is a pandemic so if but

you know focus your energies drug companies and do your thing i completely agree when i heard like it takes normally seven to ten years to create a

vaccine i was like six wow nine months i had no clue it's

not my specialty wasn't following the scene at all so yeah um and i never had the ebgbs

like this was a rushed product i'm like let the scientists do what scientists do and um if this is the right solution

let's apply it yeah yeah yeah and i did you know i would i mean that really is when you think

about it because they came out near the end of 2020 didn't they yeah i mean that was like i mean that's less than a year

i believe israel took their first doses december 19th 2020. yeah yeah yeah i

mean that's incredible uh incredibly fast um so yeah they came out and i you know

remember when they were starting to roll out and there was this big kind of i don't want to say narrative because it

just sort of implies some sort of you know conspiratorial purpose or something but

it's there really seemed to be this push in the media almost the story was like thank god the vaccines are getting out

hope we have enough for everybody almost pushing this like you know obviously you'd want it so you know let's um like

like like watching over the fact that some people might be well hey wait a minute what is this again like um and uh

that was never really that never vaccine skepticism never seemed to be

uh any any kind of a threat in the mainstream media uh throughout when these things were being rolled out

it was like it's assumed you want it you know a lot of momentum behind it and uh and you're right and within like you

know a couple of weeks you know i think at the first crack started the show where people like well is it necessary for everyone

right right um let's look at the skewing and the risk stratification here maybe i'm not quite so sure yet can i get it

in a year from now right they seem to be quite quickly the wiggle room was going

to get a lot tighter and tighter and tighter yeah on this which has never

happened in like pop modern culture you know what i mean and it was an interesting

you know early on i thought to myself and you know this is uh you could argue a little selfish but i thought to myself

yeah like i'm not going to get it i'll get everybody everybody else will get it and i'll have her immunity and you know i'll i'll be fine well and that works

since you're not really as you probably knew at that time not like center focused in terms you were much more in the peripheral of will i actually get

hurt severely by this disease right right if you're at ground zero then you might have a different analysis yeah so

you had the luxury of not just knowing that other people who are more like obvious of demographics or so many more

older people today than ever before so if they all kind of go they by definition will create that circle of uh

immunity around you right and since you're not part of the bullseye target zone of those who are getting sick you had every right to kind of step to the

side and let those who are most vulnerable go first right get it because they need it most and then just take a wait and see approach

you the luxury of youth and health yeah and well i bless you with the youth comments or i

mean that's it but uh um the uh yeah it's all relative um the

um i i remember you know i sort of

encouraging my parents uh to get their shot because you know they were they were going to get it anyway and they're a little older so it's like

um you know it made sense for them to get it and just continuing to watch you know

the politicization of the the rollout and the um you know and i remember there being some shortages and like you know

did we over order a bunch of vaccines because of course you dispose of them after x number of um weeks or whatever

um and yeah so i don't know it was mid-2021 rolls around

and i still hadn't had the vaccine and you hadn't had the vaccine and what were

the responses that you were getting as that year rolled on if you can remember well my

situation was interesting because our business was closed from november 2020 till july 1st 2021 and again we were

taking it very seriously so we were not interacting with hardly anyone just my wife and i in my house and occasionally

i'm taking a walk with my parents outside and uh the odd coffee in the garage of lots of air ventilation but

not even stepping inside their house and nobody coming inside our house so we were like the definition of cocooning

and like hunkering down and we were researching you know as we're researching different uh

doctors from around the world different medical associations around the world different countries and their responses

and uh we saw around the time when it was available for our age group in canada me

being in the 40 to 49 bracket it really was like mid-june around that time and uh israel had been doubled vaxxed at

that point and they were starting to see an uptick in cases which were resulting in an uptick in hospitalizations

and they had started the uh maybe we should have to give a third shot for those who are 65 and older

so that sort of information and knowledge which wasn't really being conveyed on mainstream legacy media

made my wife and i just sort of pause and say well we have the benefit of very low numbers in the summertime

uh because just through natural fluctuations it's going to drop and our business by definition will be shut down

if the numbers ever go higher so we said we we are in a very peculiar situation where we get shut down when we

get 700 cases in a province of 17 million you know that's what that was the threshold to shut down our business

so the chances of actually bumping into the virus were low and it was summertime as well and as the story kept emerging the more

and more data that was coming through only created the barrier in which to get the

vaccine to increase in size yeah i was very very very close to getting it many

times online oh look honey it's just down the road we can get astrazeneca it's 11 30 at a shopper's driveway we'll go there

and be finished in 20 minutes that's fantastic like i'm very sympathetic to everybody in this because you know i

could have just buying a flip of a coin have gone get it got it as well but as more and more data so be it came through

we're like well we have the benefit of time and i'm going to play the long game because

if i get vaccinated and regret it i can never get unvaccinated they're just so that's a short-term game

for for a very potentially long-term loss right so if i want to play the long-term game i'm going to sit back and

just wait for more data to come through because once i do this i can't undo it yeah so that's where i was at so let's

um actually take a look at some of that data because i think that a lot of the skepticism against people who were

um there's got to be a better what's the euphemism for an anti-vaxxer like

there's got to be a better term to call people vaccine hesitant you know yeah okay so

the um let's take a look at some of these stats

and because i think there's a lot of um people have this idea uh like one of the

sort of criticisms about the vaccine hesitant is you know well what do you what what

what do you people what are you thinking you're going against the advice of the top medical experts in you know in the

country and you know and in the world like everybody's you know seemingly everybody at the the top brass is saying

hey get the vaccines your best protection so the argument would be to the vaccine hesitant what gives you the

right to think that somehow you know better than these people because that you know by definition if you're not getting the

vaccine and they're saying you should you're you're being a contrarian um so let's take a

look at some of the stats like first of all i guess how would you answer how would you respond to that somebody somebody says that too i'm sure you've

had like that say that to you a lot of the time yeah no um to say to you

um everybody else all the experts are saying that you should get this vaccine why are you not getting it true um

well first we have to like define an expert because there's there's experts um

an expert who goes with a consensus is no more an expert who doesn't go off the

consensus so it's a funny situation we find ourselves in today because you could find a person who's a 25 year

illustrious career in virology but if they decide to go against the consensus all of a sudden they're a rogue

non-expert right so via the internet and podcasts and just researching in general

you saw that there was actually as there should be in a scientific community a lot of um contrary opinions on what is the best

route to take it was around that time that i actually bumped into that great barrington declaration which was all

about focused protection and vaccinating provacs everybody who truly needs this

and needs this in terms of severe hospitalization severe illness and hospitalizations there was no talk early

on that this was going to stop the spread this is all about you get this vaccine you're not going to end up in

the hospital so when you contrast that expert opinion against the messaging we

were getting from our own local governments you know it's not any different than wanting to go get a hip surgery and

someone says you need to get your hip replaced and you go to get a second opinion from an expert and they say well

maybe therapy might be the right way through this i don't know where we lost the ability to have a second opinion

from qualified experts and if you dug deep enough and turned off your television set you saw there was quite a

bit of different uh diverging opinions on how to handle the situation and then it didn't take much

to to somebody who's vaccine hesitant you say well what age group are you in and if they said 65 and older and i have

type 1 diabetes you might want to say well actually you know cost benefit analysis skews towards you getting the

vaccine you're certainly somebody who would be probably better off taking this but when you would scroll down and most

countries in the municipalities had their own data on these things oh look at that i fall between 40 and 49 and

even now at two years into this in my particular age bracket 40 to 49

it's only 200 in so deaths in all of ontario which is 17 million people 200

or so deaths in that age range yes so that's the age range that i specifically fall in so now it sounds like a lot

though 200 deaths from between 40 and 49 in ontario yeah over a two-year period right and is it is that just

in general or covet-related related and then we have to get into the incidental with coveter from covid who are these

200 people were they malnourished do they have drug problems do they have diabetes underlying health conditions right so but even if you take 200 as

gospel 200 deaths over a two-year period isn't enough for me to say anything needs to

be mandated it's a personal choice and by all means you should be able to trust your own medical associations and they

say this is the right solution for your health problem but you have of course on my point of view 100

uh support to go do that but i didn't see enough to say you must do this so depending on who the person was if they

are vaccine hesitant it would depend on their living arrangements personal health just like everything you know

consult your doctor to see if this medication is right for you the one-size-fits-all mentality that seemed

to emerge early on never seemed to fit any of the data that was coming through yeah yeah i mean one

of the arguments i would give uh to the the how do you know better than the experts is is simply you know they're they have

their mandate and from their perspective trying to um you know take care of a whole

population of people like the the simplest course is you know

everybody gets the vaccine we'll we'll lose less people that way than we will the other way sure um so okay sure

that's their thing but you have to think as an individual you're not you know we're coming from a different you know well it's like the argument like you

know you talk to your doctor your doctor is going to know you a lot better than you know the ceo or the you know the

head of the cdc or the head of canada health uh so it's the granularity of having you know like i you know i feel

like i know my own body more i feel like my doctor knows it a little less but is more knowledgeable about medicine and

then you sort of it gets abstracted to a point where it's like you know the policies are so

um broad that it's like you know it doesn't fit into what i what i believe you certainly yeah you we do it does hit

that crux where it's is it an individual solution versus a population level based

solution right and again i'm very sympathetic to the population level solution because you have to

almost do a lowest common denominator what's going to get society through this but to then tell a 20 healthy 25 year

old you must do this or you can't go to school right it doesn't really seem to help society much it doesn't seem to

definitely help the individual much at least not enough to say it must be mandated right and that's the issue when you get into central planning like it

just becomes the big idea is far more important than any nuanced truths that may come out in the meantime

right and so in order for the big idea to uh be the overarching

goal of society certain truths have to be almost cast by the wayside yeah

yeah and um you know i think again it's like if this had been something that you know because let's go over the let's go

over these statistics for i mean these are these these are the statistics that we were looking at you

know in sort of early mid 2021 um in terms of making a decision whether we

wanted to get the vaccine or not and you know the stuff more than i do in terms of the actual i would always hear

things anecdotally but my memory is as porous as a pasta siv so like i can't um you know i

can i never have the the figures at hand but i remember it being over 99 survival rate for the average

person am i wrong in that no not at all and actually the more testing we did the higher the survival rate became because

just by definition you know there was so many people that were not being tested and surviving it so the more testing you do the survival

rate only increased and increased and increased and increased you can actually see the same thing was true for stars cov1 so so sorry

so the more testing you do uh in the sense that like as time goes on more people are going to have it and not be

tested there and i i just so if you if you can only do

x number of tests and that number is low uh initially um

there are going to be by definition many people who don't know they have it are in society

had it survived it oh i see and it won't count counted as part of your stats right so the people and the people who

did have it and didn't survive it that would be known whereas that would be an unknown if there was absolutely more

testing you have the more the survival rate goes up right and you know you're normally you know not to try to quote a direct number on this but you're going

to find depending on the age bracket and country and underlying you know there's so many different variables here you're

we're into something of a 99.5 insert the next number it's usually another 789 at that point survival rate

yeah you know and certainly as you dip lower and you get into uh you know the under 18 crowd you're somewhere in the

realm of ninety nine point nine nine eight two five right or something yeah you start getting into the

amazon aws uptime okay yeah yes yes yes and again nothing to say it's worth

mandating over you wish it it's there we have a solution make your familiar choice and go get it

if that's the right thing for you but to mandate something over i mean i was talking to one lady who is from china

and has been through these more centralized planning and she's very happy to be in canada she took a much

more extreme approach and she said well unless 20 of the population's dying i

don't think the government should ever get involved it's your choice there's the hospital and fix the hospitals and

your life is your life and the hospital is the hospital life and you do what is necessary for you and although that

isn't i can see where she's delineating that you do have a certain amount of personal responsibility in this as the

government has their responsibility and to say all of a sudden that you must shut down your life entirely because the

government and hospitals weren't ready only works for so long you know in ontario we haven't really

increased uh icu capacity and we're two years into this right right well i mean i the argument

could probably be made that we haven't because we're still dealing with the epidemic i mean there's only so

much you know if you're triaging and you're still dealing with people getting sick then and apparently

um a lot of the front care or um what are the front line workers have all

apparently that's a sort of decimated population now as well because not necessarily because they've all been wiped out with kobe but you know a lot

of them have just been like taking other jobs because it's like well this is too stressful or

uh or you know like forced out or whatever because of mass mandates but i don't know how big that

um how how big of a percent that is but um

it's uh so i i could sort of be sympathetic with uh you know let's wait till things calm

down we were unprepared for sure and we you know get into that which you know i do

think there's a story there too as to why we were unprepared but um and i do think it's like government mismanagement and like a lack of

priority to the things that are important um but i would say that at this point it's like okay you know

you know now we've learned our lesson in that sense so let's try to build better you know we'll try to build back better you know

let's try and get some let's try to get some let's try and get the hospitals you know um more prepared for you know in case

this kind of thing happens again but of course you can't have you know just playing devil's advocate you you can't have um

uh you can't spend this huge budget just on preparing for a pandemic that might not

come again for the next you know 100 years absolutely having you know a big snow plow division uh in a mediterranean

southern mediterranean country at a certain point the cost doesn't really uh justify um but i think i think the

problem is a little a little more um a little more uh heady a little more

philosophical a little more ideological because these are sort of the practical implementations of what we need to do to

stop this from happening but if i may i just want to read a quote by a very good independent journalist out of

quebec and um in french we won't be quoting it yeah um and he's

he's fantastic and he has a great website his name is julius rochelle and um just give me a second to read through

this because i think it's going to highlight the underlying root problems of what

we've been struggling with on a society level so the quote goes as always big ideas that depend on a

collective buy-in from the community are by definition threatened by anyone whose

opinion ideas objective evidence personal needs or individual choices

break the cohesiveness of the group and so inconvenient facts that must be

suppressed in convenient opinions that must be silenced inconvenient individuals must be cancelled and

individual choices must be ruthlessly replaced with loyalty to the group in

order to achieve the utopia waiting on the horizon truth is the first casualty of central

planning intolerance isn't a bug in central planned societies it's a feature

and so this is where i come back now to central planning in the hospitals maybe it is a time for a privatization to a

degree maybe that would have laid off some of the uh created more efficiencies and competition within the market if

during this pandemic all the private hospitals were able to hire the people you're requesting and increase the size

of the icus we have now a very good you know almost like a randomized control

trial of sense like which of the two operating systems are actually going to perform better under pressure right and

there was a moment in time and they've taken it off the ontario's website where if you scroll down on the

part where they had icu capacity early on and you clicked and said instead of 30 days 90 days all time

for the first six months the capacity of ontario's icu's was 3

500 beds oh wow then six months in starting in about the

fall of 2020 it drops down to 2500 1000 less and stays there oscillating up and down

a bit to where we are now and you know early 2022. so we actually have a thousand

less icu beds now than from the very start of the pandemic now you could argue i

don't know what the nature of these icu beds are were they more field hospitals where they can be poorly manned perhaps

these are specialties i don't know much about the inner workings but we had more and so that means more is possible if

we're under enough pressure right so now that we're back down to 2500 we are sort of admitting overall there is less

pressure so to go through more shutdowns and threats of shutdowns and mandates when we actually have more capacity than we

are exhibiting at the moment doesn't seem to um jive with me yeah

well you know and again it might just be that there's less front line workers to to

you know because i i heard something the other day where it's not really a problem with beds anymore it's it's the lack of people to

you know tend to them could very well be but at this and certainly an icu bed require more you know more educated

people around that kind of person too to help them um i just can't help but think that

in times of you know in times of duress you can't hire and have apprentices and just scaffold

you know so you get those who have the most experience on the most the most uh critical situations and then maybe you

could have young nurses on the lower end of the uh difficulty level

yeah and just find your way through this we're two years into it and we defeated the germans in four years we turned

forward motor plants into tank producing uh assembly lines and got the tanks made

and sent over yeah i just we have to be able to do better than this right yeah no that's a that's a

good point there's a lot of unemployment there's a lot um you know pay the people properly get them educated get them into

the right positions and start saving people yeah because instead of shutting down a small business like mine where my wife and i

then had to collect a serb each right that's two thousand and two thousand ish

dollars four thousand then our business thankfully got rent relief that's several more thousand we could have

stayed open and you could have given that bundle of money to the hospital yeah yeah that's a good point right and

that's just one small business there's another six seven thousand dollars you can simply go month after month we were

closed for 10 months in total voila put all that money towards the hospital and hire the people you need to hire and

small business being the driver of the economy i can only imagine that five to ten thousand dollars per every

small business being directed to the actual place where you need it the hospital care rather

than forcing us to be close that equation only works if forcing us to be closed resulted in that much less people

going to the hospitals yeah yeah i feel like a lot of that while i

would commend the government on getting that money out quickly because i didn't think that was the one thing where i thought wonderful yeah they really did

kind of orchestrate that well but um but yeah like you said like that's i i feel

like the whole thing was almost politically motivated rather than it being a sort of a measurement and a weighing of

you know what is the better solution here is it better to you know pay people and like it's better to shut things down

and have people you know staying at home and by that a lot of people are going to be under which and which is the

permanent solution because shutting me down let my business survive thankfully during this time

but if we had taken that money instead and given it to the hospitals the hospitals would still be running on the

benefits of that investment of cash right so whatever variant is coming in the future we've now theoretically gone from two and a half thousand icu bits

maybe five thousand capacity right and we are more than amply ready for any wave coming as opposed to putting that

money into purchasing vaccines for those who don't need them and spending the billions on that yeah yeah i think

there's a lot i mean and you you also like to like i always try to give the benefit of the doubt because when i look

at the way the canadian government in particular um and you know several governments not to you know blame them

specifically but um the way they handled it um i i want to

give them the benefit of the doubt just because it's uh so often i i i'm wringing my hands at like how

incompetent they seem and how motivated by something other than the public good um or maybe maybe

motivated by that but but sort of having a skewed idea of what that is or at

least from my opinion um but i think that uh they

you know i want to i want to give them the benefit benefit of the doubt and say okay well maybe there was a short amount of time they had to make a quick

decision and it was like look we have to shut things down we have to have people staying at home we don't want this to spread if that was the

advice they were getting from canada health maybe that's the true but i've i've heard before that in order to do a

lockdown every country has their own pandemic planning already in place prior and even the who

has guidelines and the parameters the criterion which is necessary to

lock down a city or a province a country coveted never qualified for the previous

uh criteria and parameters we had in order to say this is worth locking down for what what are some of the parameters

uh of transmissibility the amount of death that is happening that sort of thing interesting yeah so it never

qualified and so for the who for the who won or the canadian both oh okay and um

somehow we saw what was happening in china and they were doing the extreme lockdowns and we had first snicker well

that will never happen here and uh we just followed what china was doing and we threw out our pandemic

planning that had been established through our own medical associations and went with the chinese model

yeah i wonder if this kind of thing would have played out the same way 50 years

ago because i when i you think about it it's like it doesn't really make sense uh

there wasn't that many people proportionately dying obviously there was a lot of people dying from it and

you know not trying to belittle that but it's like you know is it just that the people who are dying

are dying on viral videos that are being you know maybe it's too politically damaging to

say um maybe maybe it's just you know we don't want anybody dying or at lea at the very

least we want to show that we're doing everything possible to prevent dying as opposed to taking you know what a

government should do is take in all the sort of you know not just health recommendations but the financial recommendations the

you know associate you know sociological recommendations or whatever like you want to have

a solution that works for the most people um and in the best way long term

but i wonder 50 years ago maybe you don't have that exposure to the media the government can be like look what makes the most sense is you know we tell

people to wear mass socially distance but we can't shut down the economy you know obviously we would plunge ourselves

into a debt that we could never get out of so you know maybe the idea is i think i wonder how much of it these

days is just politicians wanting to look the best they can true and we have

this sort of um cultural thing though you know everybody gets a star so the politician like whether they actually

created a system in which shows benefit or not is like what but i did something do i get a star

you know look at me whereas before i was like no can we can we i actually need results on this and you know further to that point 50 years

ago we wouldn't have had a vaccine out so quickly right so what would we have done we could have wore a mask perhaps

because we still don't really have great randomized control trials on whether masking works or not certainly in light of omicron it seems exceedingly unlikely

unless you're doing a one of those n95 masks why does it seem unlikely well there's 150 studies that show the masking

and by masking i mean cloth masking because there's a lot of nuance and what is a mask and how to wear the mask there

is a one hun there is 150 studies that show that in light of omicron and perhaps even delta masking does not do

more benefit than harm this is medical these are in papers this

is research and we're in you know you're talking about consensus and expert opinion before if you actually get into

scientists debating this stuff you will not find a lot of consensus on whether the masking is actually doing anything

right now well my understanding is yeah the n95 mass are effective

other ones or not sure but the who also recommends you cannot wear one of those for eight hours a day

the n95 yes so now we have something that works in short bursts but you're not going to have society wearing one of

those masks a day what are why aren't they recommending that uh i haven't looked at it recently fit comfort um

stuff of that nature okay yeah but it's it's definitely not recommended to wear eight nine ten hours a day so then you

go back to the cloth but then the cloth and light of omicron is not particularly effective you know so

well if it's not particularly effective then maybe it's effective enough to be something you know like uh perhaps i

don't know the numbers on it absolutely enough to mandate though yeah no i i yeah

um there's a there i can't really you know into this the nature of the podcast but there are a lot of studies that

basically show they are ineffective right maybe we can link but by ineffective yes definitely and by

ineffective what i mean is that uh that the costs it's not that they don't have a certain amount of efficacy but the

costs do not outweigh the benefits do not outweigh the costs i see what are the costs in that kind of uh

um what it does to society children um sociological learning oh i see

there's all sorts of parameters that they go into this not just simply you know do you catch the virus or not there's a lot of stuff going on there

um yeah there's 150 studies uh brownstone institute is a great website for anyone listening who

has very qualified experts in their fields write detailed articles with all these

studies linked to them and it's one of the single best resources anybody can just tap into you know so yeah definitely i would

recommend that and back to your point 50 years ago i think we might have just done a little bit of reduced capacity

perhaps masking and again not being so sensationalized on television

you know uh and hopefully people just hunker down through a year or two and not get too sick the vast vast vast majority of

people who cut even covered the alpha variant and delta would have been like it was a really bad

flu for a week right you know i think 50 of people are asymptomatic light symptoms are for 85 percent of the

population so you're only really dealing with 15 that are even gonna have heavy duty symptoms so again 50 years ago i

don't know if we would have shut down all of society for just 15 percent of people dealing with heavy symptoms right

of which about of that 15 of the of the total 100 1 may end up in hospital

okay so we want to get back to um talking about why we

the reasons we had for not getting the vaccine in the first place well a point of uh um

full disclosure here the i i ended up getting the vaccine it was late on in it but it was uh i had

a wedding coming up and i had um work you know the um

the temperature of the climate at work was such that i knew that i would have to get one soon

and um and uh there are there are a few things well just in society wanting to participate in society wanting to be

there for christmas again wanting to do all the things that one would expect one to be able to do

um most of my family well i think everyone in my family had gotten it and and

um it was just to a point where i was like look i if i'm not getting it i just don't get to kind of participate in

family get-togethers anymore to be fair nobody had dropped dead in your family yet so you're like it's okay yeah exactly well there were

no evidence yeah very afraid of this and while i was very skeptical of getting it and i did i'm and still i've

through the whole thing i've always thought i would rather not get it um there was nothing you know part of me was like maybe i'm being a little bit

ridiculous about this like i you know and and really i say that but knowing in my heart that i wasn't knowing you know

what i mean and this actually still grinds my gears if that's even a phrase that people use anymore about this is that i

i knew in my heart i feel like i went against my my conscience by getting it i really do and and it's unfortunate now

like whatever it was done is done um i hope to never make that mistake again just in general in life but i i do i

felt strongly enough about it that um and like you know people who sort of

held out and got past the storm uh you know i think like uh you know

although most of you people have gotten coveted you know now that the friends of mine that have that didn't get the

vaccine um a lot of you ended up getting we were talking about this and just um to that last point

there um us too between my wife and myself our families um we are by far the most

restrictive with our movements to like an eight plus degree like i just

hugged my mother for the first time in over two years a week ago and haven't had a coffee or cake or

anything inside either house until christmas this year we had our in-laws over which would have been

just shy of two years anybody stepping foot in our house yet we caught it as well in our case i would say it's a nature of a job i i'm beside people for

an hour at a time you know so i think any mask if you're beside somebody for over an hour is going to have a very challenging time

yeah just probability probability in that particular nature but yeah i think there might be something to your stats however

um it's now no longer available maybe it will come back on but if you go to the ontario database on their official

website they had this um one section where they had let's see if i can get the title right

like uh rates of cases per 100 000 based on vaccination status

and had three different components of the status vaccinated partially vaccinated or not vaccinated at all

and the vaccinated people in ontario during the omicron wave were catching it

at higher rates per 100 000 than non-vaccinated people

now is that because of some sort of immune system fatigue is this some sort of you just got your

booster and your body is actually lower before it peaks at the high point and it happened to be at the wrong time during

the actual omicron uh when it was ripping through society is it because

vaccinated versus unboxing people behave differently like we don't i don't want to just attribute it just to vaccines or

doing something bad to those who got vaccinated at all but those were the numbers and now if you go back to the

website that chart is no longer available it has one of those little eye for information

and says this information is no longer available due to technical difficulties

really technical difficulties yes um but well so but isn't that the

difference in the um can you say this can you say that again the statistics uh one the people who are

vaccinated versus non-vaccinated in ontario during the omicron wave we're catching it i

believe at 2.7 times greater frequency per 100 000 than non-vaccinated people

so out of 100 000 people and i'm explaining this both for our listeners

but also because i i always have a tough time wrapping my head around numbers um [Music]

so it's one they take 100 000 people who are vaccinated 100 000 people are non-vaccinated and the rate at which

people were catching the virus was 2.7 times higher in the in the vaccinated yes

so if you wanted to do a lowest common denominator and call it one person per 100 000 and it wasn't one it was higher

than one for every one it'd be 2.7 of the other group right and so if it was four it'd be times 2.7 for the other

group and onwards right and now as the thing has receded the numbers come closer again but that's what they would

refer to and there's other studies out of denmark that show the exact same thing as well so it isn't just something we saw in

ontario and even in the new york times had a article just a little while ago about this

saying this is what they call immune system fatigue and you can't just keep hitting yourself you will get higher antibodies if you check the day after

getting a vaccine but what happens over the course of those 90 days while being freshly vaccinated um is

uncertain at the best so the first after the second dose we had he uh we had

efficacy for 20 weeks after the booster 10 weeks

so now as you go into the 4th if we follow the same trend will it be less than 10 weeks it looks like it's skewing

in that direction and so if we keep hitting ourselves one theory

that many experts around the world now are talking about to the point that it's even in the new york times is that if we

keep hitting our bodies with these vaccines are we creating an immunity fatigue which left unchecked might mean you need

a shot every single month right right with the vaccines we currently have if there's new ones in

the pipeline we'll see if they're in the fall if there's a variant proof omicron specific

uh once every 12 months uh needing dosage but i'll wait until i see

the stats that they actually prove it because that's what they promised us with the initial one right yeah and it didn't pan out it was always just

another variant away and more research away from that not playing out either either yeah so you know fool me once

shame on me yeah um shame on you the ratio yeah

you know i think it was on the um same dark horse show where brad weinstein makes this

um sort of makes the case that there is a bit of a false equivalency going on with

this um when the vaccines were rolled out um because you know people people see the syringe and associate in their minds

you know just the word vaccine with you know these things are all safe we've been doing this for decades

uh everything is um you know there's nothing there's nothing unusual about this we'll

just get the vaccine for covid like we've gotten the vaccine for you know uh

chickenpox and any any other number of things um but um but

i think people who actually knew what he's saying is like the you know biologists and people who actually knew what was going into these vaccines knew

the new knew the um um how original these were and how novel

they were and um and it's it's sort of like comparing apples and oranges to say that

um you know this is the same you know this is your grandmother's vaccine or whatever

um he sort of dramatically used the example of you know if you go into if

you go into a room and you see a gun on the table and you put the gun to your temple and you shoot it and it just goes click does that mean

that the gun is safe it's like probably not it means that you know you you sort of got by that time

um you really it sort of illustrates the difference between with

these mr mrna vaccines as opposed to traditional vaccines like because it's a really a new

a new thing that came along that you know and within you know months they had

started pushing out the vaccines well and to that effect the goal post kept changing because at first the the rhetoric around it was it's a novel

technology it's fantastic minority vaccines we never were able to produce vaccines in such a short period of time

this is an exciting new field that's emerging to well as more data was coming through and

we needed perhaps a third shot we saw in israel and adverse reactions were going up well they've been studied for over 10

years now perhaps 20. well that's not quite so novel anymore is it you kind of switch the story around it now

and so there was a lot of like uh you know story weaving that was going on as well yeah yeah yeah i think um and

that's really okay so let's get to this because it's it's a lot of the heart of this like i know we both listen to the

same podcast read a lot of the same stuff and i think that it you know our

impressions on what to do with this issue as to whether we would get the vaccine or not we're probably formed by

uh a lot of this stuff that we you know read and and uh and watched or listened

to and um so let's get into some of the big characters in this like dr robert

malone for example so we've never really talked about him i don't think so i'm curious your opinion

on him because he's sort of held out like on the one side it's like look at this guy one of the creators of the mrna

vaccine like he obviously knows what he's talking about like if you say that you're invented the you know the the vaccine that people are putting in their

bodies and you're against that i mean that's a pretty damaging uh thing and for the for anyone who doesn't know dr dr malone is somebody

who's been very outspoken against the coveted vaccinations but is also um

you know i i don't want to say self-styled like i think that he he did he was sort of fundamental to my

understanding in inventing these the mrna technology i

might have heard even like as much as many as 20 patents in his name regarding the original mrna technology

right yep but he's described similar like you know i i was listening to something the other day and they were

describing uh a joe rogan podcast that had dr malone on it he was described as

the discredited uh robert malone it's like well they and it was said so casually it was

like well everybody knows he's discredited he's like why is he discredited like what are the reasons do you do you cannot do this

i listened to it i was i thought it was a really good conversation there's one on rogan i've heard him uh probably listen to

uh 50 hours worth of dr malone in the last year alone um you know he's human and the the problem

if i can just be counterpoint to this is that when you start to and he can get into very technical nuances

about how this goes a very small fraction of society understands what he's talking about right so you can be

overwhelmed by the technical side and then the narrative that he's sort of saying that you know it's not free i

don't think he says it's he's against vaccination he's just against mass vaccinations and mandates around vaccinations i think i've heard him

enough times say over 60 65 immunocompromised by all means go get it it's your best chance at the moment but

in conjunction with any other therapy that may be available for this as well as i don't find him to be an absolutist

on this which is something you don't really hear about in the mainstream media for the most part i think

so you're going to say yeah sorry i was just going to say well because i remember hearing him talking specifically about the um

the coveted vaccinations saying you know how he was very concerned about the spike protein coming loose and

this is probably um you know early 2021 i want to say uh and

uh you know and i don't know like like like most people like i don't know you know

i'm listening to this guy talk and it's like well he sounds like he's you know he sounds very credentialed in terms of

this and he's saying it's bad like this is exciting i believe he said i've heard before i'm just working off memory but

that it's okay two doses for some people three doses and beyond

probably not and in terms of vaccinating anybody under the age of 30 and is healthy definitely not

um it's all about also like you know how much how many years do you expect left to live in you know cost benefit

analysis and that's all in light of alpha and perhaps delta with omicron it completely changes so i'm sure if we

listen to his point of view of vaccination in regards to omicron that would definitely change the whole um

skewing of it as well but no i'm i think he's i think he means well i think he's

sincere um he's he's not infallible you know you're all of a sudden now on the news

and feeling like a rock star and being asked to do two or three different shows per day and you definitely have to be

careful um all i suggest is when somebody listens to and i do recommend listening to a little bit of dr malone

counterbalance that with critique on the other side and just find out what's going on i i think he adds a very

important component to understanding our way out of this predicament and you can't simply understand the full breadth

of what we're supposed to do without putting some time into dr malone right you know i wouldn't put all your eggs in

one basket but he certainly deserves to be at the table yeah i think there's a really um

effect that the the media is masterful at this in um

casting things in a very binary way like you know i you know and the thing is

you're like you said like everybody's human so uh you know you're always going to be some people are going to make mistakes

uh you know sometimes you'll have some good moments some things might be a little disingenuous like there's always something to balance but like what the

media is able to do is uh pluck one of the sort of disingenuous things and i'm not

even speaking about dr malone like just in any situation like you were talking earlier about russell brown it's

like you can take you can take the worst parts of anybody's um uh characteristics and cast them as a

villain right like you know we've all done something so it's like you find that just keep blasting that through the media

over and over it's like yeah this this person's horrible or this person is like a charlatan and uh

i think that the you know it goes the other way too so it's like you know dr fauci is like look at this guy who was

like head of um uh you know like aids research back when and just to your point you know

i'm not saying dr malone knows anything about what he's saying and whether we should listen to him but

those who are qualified like a dr fauci would it not be a ratings extravaganza

to have both of them on a podcast together or cbc or the cnn or fox or

what al jazeera's bbc and say we're going to have a one-hour special of these two doctors debating one another

yeah it would literally be as popular as a ufc fight they would have a ratings bonanza and then the public can decide

for themselves which doctor they prefer but i let him at least be questioned by his peers in a way that we can actually

listen instead of being relegated to the uh having to do the podcast trail and going around and just talking to you and

i yeah you know the fact that people don't engage him on mass is puts a red

flag to me and i don't think it's because he's completely off his rocker yeah i just don't want to engage him because he probably knows much much more

in them and they're going to expose their own weaknesses so therefore you know and regarding how you started this this segment now about

whether you wanted to get vaccinated or not that would put up a red flag why are not all voices being invited to the

table so i can make a informed decision yeah and i i i would say that that's the biggest reason for me too is the center

censorship surrounding certain individuals and certain topics like the ivermectin topic like why you know

it is being presented by sort of alter alternative media or whatever you want whatever the term is that is describing

like you know um alternative here but in many countries around the world it's part of their protocols

right right you know so it's quite interesting because we are in our own little bubbles here thinking well the way we're doing it is the right way and

the way the whole world should be doing it right yeah yeah you know um but you know why why are why is

something like ivermectin it's like you know i just remember the whole horse tranquilizer thing and it's like

this is here's a drug that is safe it's proven that it's safe that it is um you know whether like there have

there were studies and i don't know where we are i haven't been following this stuff for like a year now but there were studies that that were showing

ivermectin was effective i remember uh pierre corey was you know a big ivermectin um and he you know

and he also worked you know on the front line of this stuff so really had a i think fairly um hands-on idea of what therapies would

work and what wouldn't work and um you know and again like i you know i know certainly well obviously no

obviously no expert in this but all i can do is you know hear from people who sound like they should be experts like

people who have you know the credentials to match and when you hear people like that saying like look ivermectin

like the the you know seems like it's something that a drug that can can work and why aren't we talking about this and

you and then you know of course you have the narrative well the drug companies wouldn't make any money off of hyper marketing because there's no patent for

it or whatever the traumatizing terrorizing thing for me is every person i engage with uh who when i it happens to come up in

conversation because most people have heard of the drug now ivermectin you within a heartbeat you hear the word

horse dewarmer from their mouths right that's what i meant yeah and it is unbelievable because those are intelligent people and they just simply

can only know what they know they turn into tv and they're told ivermectin horsey armor so that would that makes

sense that every time you heard the word penicillin horse dewormer eh that's what you're taking now and it makes and

people don't seem to connect the dots and these two different uh so when i tell them this is on the ivermectins on

the who's list of top 25 most essential drugs it's been administered they won a nobel prize for administering it to

humans not for covid but for parasites yellow fever dengue things we don't have in north america for the most part and

that you know if prescribed by a doctor for a human it is very safe in the

realms of somewhere like a tylenol or something like that um i'm not saying it works i'm not saying it doesn't work all

i'm saying is if a qualified doctor wishes to be able to prescribe that to their patient

how can you justify that same doctor can prescribe opioids but can't just prescribe ivermectin yeah very

politicized it's unbelievable and i'm not saying it works i'm saying let a professional decide let's do the studies

and then if i see on mass that it's just not working and there's a couple of crazy doctors that are doing it but you

know what i'm going to turn my head back towards the vaccine solution go i'm going to give that a second look i think this is my path right but immediately

there was you know censorship around it everybody who talked about ivermectin as a potential solution was you know

labeled uh um uh you know crazy or whatever uh and

then you get yeah situations like joe rogan where it's um you know he's castigated for for using it by you know

cnn using the horse dewormer label and it's like um it really is and it's kind

of like what i was saying in the the earlier monologue where it's just this like you can start a conversation with

somebody and the minute you say a certain trigger word like an ivermectin or like yeah i haven't been vaccinated it's like oh immediately all these

assumptions just like like crowd the person's mind they're not even interested in anything else that you're saying that's what i find i made

the error early on saying well there's these studies just being naive and you know trying to be altruistic and find

like and the studies show and i know there's not a lot but you know we only base mixing and matching of uh you know

different mrna vaccines on one or two small studies and we're like that's good to go we can do this and you can say yes

to that so you the the the mechan the mechanisms in place were able to

lower the standards when it suited their narrative let's say mixing and matching two studies let's rock it's good to go

but now we have something like 50 to 100 studies showing ivermectin looks like it may actually work no well we just don't

have like a 10 000 person gold standard randomized control trial so we're just not going to start that

you know i think i think the booster studies were based on like a a total number of like 380 participants

whether to vaccinate under like 12 or 18 was somewhere around 1500 to 3 000. right so they were able to lower the

standards for to get the green light for that but then they take and increase the standards in order to have i've met into

this you know sort of stratospheric level that unless you are a fiser with a billion dollars in the bank you're not

going to be able to find such a thing yeah well what's funny about that is like when you think of the covet vaccines and and

the those studies you know like now they're like well you know we

have the the vaccine sample size now like because it's happening in the general population and

it's like really this is now the study that you know what i mean like so you've already deployed it and now in sort of

um retroactively you're claiming that this is the study there was actually a quote on that during one of the very

boring uh where people would teleconference in different doctors about the fda approval regarding

i believe it was vaccinating kids under a certain age and one of the regulatory advisors there were like well we'll just

never know unless we try right that's what you want to hear when you're rolling over wow yeah

you really just said that these are people's children right and they're actually what are you trying to solve

like the rate of death and severe illness is so minute yeah you're going to actually if just one more child dies

then you save you've murdered a child right you know willingly yeah well and this is i mean i'm sure you've

made that norman deutsch uh um essay right like we're i've heard of it yeah

uh so and he was on the jordan peterson podcast and uh points needle points yeah yes yes i actually did listen to the

entirety of it uh three hours yeah yeah so it's uh and very um you know talking about the history of you know

um vaccine history and uh the history of like the cdc and like

the healthcare like military experiments like the tuskegee stuff like it's like you know there has been a long history

of government um and again you know i say the word government

all of a sudden i feel like you know people are gonna be listening to this thinking oh here goes here comes the conspiracies but it's like no it's not a

conspiracy these kinds of things happen you know these were like you know they they did experiments knowing that um

when they um you know you know with under the under the under

the um the moniker of this is for the greater good which maybe very well could have been but you're still taking

individuals and giving them something for example uh that that you know is going to harm them but it's just you

know they're just doing that just so they can see it in the case of tuskegee they were giving them um you know a

placebo instead of treating their actual disease because they wanted to watch how they

died and study how they died and um you know it's like uh

there's this history and it's not like this is like you know hundreds of years ago like this is all like a lot of this stuff happened and when you look at and

i believe it's in the same essay but you can find it anywhere the uh the largest finds in in conjunction or larger single

finds for criminal activities in american history it falls on the shoulders of the pharmaceutical companies yeah yeah so so

you know would you trust me if i had the largest criminal fine of all time you probably shouldn't you know your odds

are in favor yeah you shouldn't trust me yeah yeah it's unfortunately and we do need the pharmaceuticals but i view them

as a necessary evil you just you're gonna you have to play ball with them a little bit yeah and well and but

so and even that is kind of like okay yeah like you said like a necessary evil but what kills me is the

this whole attitude of well you must be crazy if you don't want to take the vaccine and it's like like don't you

follow the science and like like yeah like i mean just like logic dictates i

wouldn't want to be a little bit skeptical about this like look at history well critical thinking requires you to be critical

you know and i think we've eliminated the critical and the thinking out of our our just our approach to this science

has become this sort of shiny tower of in fallibility yeah you know

and you just simply cannot i sometimes feel like i'm galileo you know trying to tell the church but in this case the

church is the industry of science and i have a dissenting opinion and you just cast right castrated out of society um

the uh so i you know we talked about her earlier the

you know not on the show but uh the um was it i want to say western was it university

of western uh yes yeah yeah that's her uh dr panassi and

she was a doctor of philosophy and ethics i believe so yeah from western university

and she was fired for um not getting the vaccine

and uh she was a professor of ethics um at western and she made this heartfelt plea

um or on on as sort of her last communique i guess uh on youtube or

wherever she posted it but is this five minute great like um

really uh summation of like what why you know she's just talking about as an

as an ethicist uh um where she stands on forcing somebody to put something into

your body and like um you know it's really powerful like you can see that it really did remind me

that you said galileo it reminds me of like that kind of a situation where it's like you know you're

like when it comes to a point where you're standing you you're like wow this is really happening i have to stand up on

my principles um against something that's very real you almost take these ideas you hear about them in movies and

you know in books where it's like you know you're so abstracted from that whole um

hero dilemma kind of thing but it's like there are people who actually have to make those decisions and and more so in

the coveted years where it's like you know you have to decide do i want to stand on my principle on this or do i

want to lose my job because that's a very real thing it's a moral dilemma on the scale of david and goliath

yeah and the table is and at that point

with that amount of you know conviction these people

and i would include myself in them are simply we just

there's something in the moral fiber that says i will not capitulate to this

even if it means my demise right economically my life whatever not your loved ones you know

you you'll always do something for your loved ones but this gets to the very fiber of their essence

and it's actually you know when you're tested is when you you get to really see what you're all about right and i did

hear like kova didn't really change us it just revealed who we really are you know and when it's under that pressure

and when you strip everything away and go what am i all about i only have a small

100 year window of consciousness to be part of this um beautiful thing of the universe

damn it where am i going to make my stand and when you look at it and pan back over the four billion years of the

universe you know who cares if you live to 90 or 50. it's what you stood for in those years that mattered yeah and you

can tell in her conviction in those four minutes the clarity of thought this woman has made up her mind and

she's taking what she believes is the right moral stand and then we have to weigh

moral stands and what it means to society versus simply the indi versus

the efficiency of numbers and virology because what's the point of society surviving if the society that survives

is not something we're proud of right you know and i think that's something when you get technocratic

and i believe we're falling into a trap of numbers and algorithms and a sort of technocratic

way of running the planet that we're losing that moral uh

waypoints those moral goalposts that sense of history and how fragile the freedoms that we have now are and

how we have to be so yes we have a fantastic system that is full of

inefficiencies but it would be a massive mistake to say let's tear it all down

and start over again the new system will be better yeah because the problem isn't perhaps the system it's us within the

system right and at that moment she was showing you that it's the morality that matters more than the actual

technocratic side yeah yeah and i think that just speaks to the truth of it yeah in

society these days it's like we're getting better at the how but uh less um aware of the why

and uh you know i i i really found her um uh

i really found her what she sort of stood for moving in the same way you know jordan peterson did the same thing over you know free speech um

it's uh you know you never know when that moment is going to come like and you always want i mean i'm sure you i mean i know

why i have this idea of how my life's going to pla like pan out and of course you know um

god and making plans and all that uh laughing at us um so it's i don't um

i i you know when those kinds of like you know i guess i guess one of the reasons i'm

kicking myself for getting the vaccine eventually is i know that i went against what i you know should have done you know it's not like i i murdered somebody

or something right you know like i you know i'm played with regret but i do think like you know i should have stood on principle with that uh it would have

been tough but i could have done it because you never but in my mind i was like well i want to keep my job i want to go to the christmas this year i want

to go my brother's wedding so it's like um but there's always like i think that kind of like your principles will almost

always demand a sacrifice and those and you never know when it's going to come when your time is going to come you know

do you always have the ability to say no but that no comes at a cost yes and you just have to just you know am i willing

to accept such a cost i mean let me ask you what percentage of canadians are vaccinated we're at like 90 or so

what percentage of that 90 got vaccinated through coercion and family pressure and everything else yeah

interesting to know right yeah so we're always so proud to tout i'm so proud of canadians 90 vaccinated let's back that

up a little bit probably i'm guessing 40 to 50 would have went and got the vaccine and as a

large proportion of them should because they're immunocompromised have health issues of age all the different risk

factors that we know are necessary but um to say you know coercing the other 40 of

your population uh was a good thing to do the right thing to do or something to celebrate when you

hit the 90 number i think it's very disingenuous yeah you know yeah i have a real you know along with

the censorship uh as being one of the biggest problems i had with all this so that the shaming was another and like

you know our prime minister trudeau with his um i just remember

thing things he would say in the way he would say them it really fed into the whole anti-vaxx uh

you know hatred that there seemed to be you know it was like you know and to some extent like you know you can

take things out of context like like i i get that you wouldn't necessarily want to sit next to an

anti-vaxxer on the bus i wouldn't either like just you know i mean just it's kind of like because you think to yourself well

in theory or even even not if you know it's almost like intuitively it's like you would think

that they would have a higher risk of having passing something they haven't taken part

in the medical intervention that everybody has been told will get you on the path of getting all of society

through this um and so you know i don't care if it's five to percent 10 40

it's a percentage and i don't want to play ball with that you know right totally understand do you know though the canadian military

admitted during this time that they were using military-grade psychological operations

on the population and testing them out so describe that

i don't know the the the details of the exact nature of what they were doing

well in what context did they sort of reveal this uh it was a news report

um so what so what what was the new so that

would just like they just released a statement yeah yeah it was something like that i can pull it up at a certain point but

that's what they said just like the trudeau government admitted they were spying on 33 million cell phones and they just flat out set it through a news

report at a certain point you know and of course privacy advocates were like what is this all about how is this even possible

um and you know it's not part of the uh regular nightly news anymore either story right yeah so again i'm just

nothing but sympathetic for everybody in particular yourself in this position because you had to just weigh the odds

and you know there is a sort of go along to get a long vibe you know it's just you know

well one of the worst things it's this whole like you know you know you got to do your part you

know putting that burden of um you know

again give me a give me a polio even give me give me something that has a really high or not even really high

marginally high rate of death you know maybe at 10 even like i would still argue for individual rights at that

point but i can understand an argument at that point where it's like look absolutely you want to do your part and it's like well i'm doing my part by

staying away from people whatever but you know this this idea to force somebody to put something in their body

i i mean it is incredible that we're even at the point over something so small like you say

psychological warfare i wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of um i mean when you think of the small

probability of death from this virus you know relatively speaking um less than one percent so okay still

high like you know enough people like that's still a high number but you know like you said that skews toward

a certain demographic um but this this the intense shaming the shutting down of

society the you know um those are the psychological operations right there yeah you i mean it really becomes

you know if we're willing to do this for that i imagine there was um a real you know like it's scary and even

more devastating it's scary how quickly people jumped up yeah i mean you i would see it on tv but you see the whole

process people it's i come from a very religious background but you see people lining up

kind of like getting communion in a church lining up to get their vaccine waiting patiently in line

and they take the magic vaccine then they go down the hallway if all the posts are set up on the wall you know

you stand in front you take your picture just kind of like when you have your child come out of the church and yeah here's your baptismal photos right you

know and uh you get to then post that on social media and declare to the world that you are now part of the good tribe

right you have been christened into the new science-ism you know it does take on

the same beats of a religion yeah you know yeah yeah there is very strong tribal and uh

evolutionary processes why religion is still around is because these things work to help keep a society together and

those elements were being used through the vaccination as well it was almost like some sort of elation some sort of

joy some sort of revelation that they got to participate i've heard from many friends and clients and whatnot who are

like i felt so privileged to be able to even get the vaccine early because of the nature of my job

wow really okay like it's it's it's medicine of a sort you know yeah yeah no that's it's a good point it's um

it's funny how it it really became almost a status symbol it's like well like how many vaccinations have you got

you know what i mean did you get your booster like what's even considered vaccinated anymore right like if somebody when you're talking about studies of people being vaccinated are

they talking about um you know somebody who's had the two vaccinations or is it two vaccinations

plus a booster because there's some studies coming out of israel that were like you know it was a little questionable how they were um

describing um you know they were talking about people who were vaccinated but it was

they were talking about vaccine like they they consider and may i could be wrong on this so um

they consider vaccinated to be whatever the latest booster is yeah for sure no yeah you had your vaccines

updated yeah just to go back to the psychological and just how we could draw maybe like a funny little parallel to

modern society imagine every time somebody bought a green car a tesla let's say

and um do they make green teslas i've never seen one but it actually said that i was like oh wow

yeah um so like let's say when you bought like a battery operated you know good for the environment car and then

you as you purchase your car you got to go down a hallway you have to wait a long time feel lucky you're able to buy

one you took a picture of yourself you posted it to social media i am now part of the tribe that's doing better for the

world right and after a while once the adoption of green technology hit the uh

the normal threshold of 30 40 adoption you started telling people if you don't get a green car

you won't be able to drive anymore we won't renew your license sticker like the coercion part starts to kick in you

can create around almost anything the exact same psychological mechanisms in

which people feel happy to participate or then like they must participate in order to get to that

point well you know so but this brings up an interesting question and you know we've talked about it before

like who are they right like so you mentioned the canadian military which i want to know more about that story and

like i don't know maybe do a break and yeah you can because i'm curious it seems an odd thing for them to sort of

declare i don't know if there are pressure to do it or why they did it but um

but i would say that it's uh you know when people people talk about this like

you know you see the how covet happens you see things like you know pharmacy like pharmaceutical companies like their

profits going up and everything and you're like you know it's pretty easy to put together the pieces but you're like is it really this simple is it really

just about money and like and who are these people that are always the you know um people are talking about you

know the great reset and this and that it's like well who are who are the who's this cabal of like

like bond villains that are out there trying to distort the world to their to their whims

who are they who are they or is it just is that how things collapse of them there's power prestige wanting to leave

your legacy everybody's trying to do from their point of view the right thing for the

planet you know um so for example with green technology you

would say um you would say that part of it is people

um who genuinely want to just reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and that sort

of like you know because that's sort of the central core of the idea is like okay this is something we have to do

people get into it with good good with uh sort of um a benevolent um

agenda uh but then but then you by necessity almost corporatize that

agenda because you're like okay well you have an idea you start a company the company gets bigger so now you have you

know people middle managers like people whose agenda it is is not necessarily to

you know achieve the dream of the company but is to financially do well with their career so you have

people who are you know you get a board of directors you get people yeah yeah it's an industry so is is that

what happens and then because uh you know it gets because in a capitalist society where based on that corporation

uh then you have these sort of entities unto themselves which have a self-interest in in profit so at the at

the detriment to maybe even the best intentions of the whole reason the

company was formed in the first place i think it's it's so it's different in every single situation in terms of like

um you know battery-operated cars i don't know if they would have ever got off the ground if they didn't have government subsidies

so then you have corporations and government working in tandem and then you have to say well why are they doing this is it is it truly greener for the

planet i've never really seen a great analysis you got to think about where do you mind the batteries how do you dispose of them yeah how do you generate

the electricity that goes into your car is it still from 40 coal plants right so therefore coal is actually powering your

electric car like i would like to see a really detailed um analysis not that i'm a pro petrol in

any way but maybe perhaps smaller cars more efficient cars you know that use less gas or more trains or anything else

you know um the part that worries me about the electrical i think it does get a little

political it's it's a lot more control i think as the world's population expands if we ever have an economic crash

or or things of that nature the chances of protests getting out of hand are far

greater just due to being able to communicate on different messaging apps and coordinating

different protests things of that all that nature i think the governments of the world are looking

for a way to be able to control the amount of civil unrest that may unfold if things ever go wrong

and so part of that could be like you could argue not to go too far ahead but

if cars are all run on a grid of sorts and protesters were going to a particular place you could simply shut

off their cars so they can't get to such a place right particularly if your digital id on your phone is used to turn

on your car as you get near it and all these convenience factors yeah so i think there's a lot of like layers to this story that need to be sensed out

and um i definitely love technology i just i want to see the um my fear in this case is that technology is changing

at a rate much faster than our understanding of it and how it affects society and then from that point what

laws do we need to put in place in order to keep civil rights at least at least at the level we're experiencing now and

no less during yeah mid 2021 um you know there was a lot of information that just

wasn't being portrayed in the mainstream media and if it was it was being you know cast as there was you know

aspersions being cast at it so like you had um you know dr malone being somebody a lot of you know you would have brett

weinstein and his dark horse podcast being you know demonetized i think well they took

ivermectin on on in one of their podcasts yeah yeah that was a thing yeah they had

the uh dr malone and stephen kershawn and that was the one i think that actually got them demonetized which was a fantastic three-hour yep delving into

the freedom of informations act and the traveling spike protein and the japanese uh i think believe uh database

they were pulling those numbers from and i think one of the one of the biggest reasons like you said like

that i was so skeptical about getting the vaccine was because there was just so many things

like it was like this veneer of um it was really like uh

the invasion of the body snatchers and you just see this almost blank look come over people's faces it's like did you get the vaccine and it's like well wait

a minute what about this other stuff it's like you're not allowed to talk about that like why and it's like you're not

supposed to even ask why missing psychological operations happening in real time and it bypasses people's

intellectual capacities yeah it does because there are a lot of smart people who you know did just get the you know

they got the vaccine like you know my dad again this smart guy like so let's just get to some of the other sort

of uh statistics um so there's a lot of stuff coming out i remember um hearing

i don't know what the statistics are on this and maybe you do um were there people i don't know if this is a rumor

or if it's you know it's so hard to suss out the truth these days um were there a significant amount of people in the cdc

or in other organizations that were not getting the vaccine right away like do you know anything about i did see some

congressional testimony at some point they were drilling them and the numbers weren't particularly high but in line

with like what america is in general because this was all coming out of the states right right some i'm gonna just ballpark it like 30 to 60 or somewhere

there have been vaccinated and you know they twist and turn and we don't have those numbers but it wasn't like some

outstanding like it wasn't like yeah 90 of people have gone right whereas julie

panesi had did dr panesi had said in uh podcast i was listening to that 98 of

all university faculty across canada had been vaccinated so you didn't hear you didn't hear um

that type of you know overwhelming right statistics coming out of the cdc and whatnot pfizer employees or modern

employees or whatnot yeah yeah yeah i mean i would hear stories um and i'm speaking anecdotally and i hate this

because i i feel like this is not helping anybody but i would hear stories about like physicians who

were you know getting in trouble for you know not not advocating for vaccinations or maybe

not even getting vaccinated themselves although i've heard numbers since that suggests that upward of 98

of physicians got vaccinated i don't know well that is interesting because i did see a study that came out that said you know um based on educational levels

uh who are the who are the people that are most unvaccinated and it was people with phds

right which i thought yeah i heard the same thing that is interesting now to be counterpoint to that point the problem

with perhaps you know being having you know the intellect to be able to be a phd they're all phds in sociology yeah

yeah yeah you can see a lot of you can see a lot of nuance here and there but it doesn't mean you're an expert in what

you're trying to decide on which is virology and you know right neurology and whatnot so i'm not saying they made a right decision i just thought it was

interesting that this whole idea that it had to be the sort of backwoods uh

burly truck driver decided to get vaccinated actually wasn't statistically at all

true yeah no that is and that is the impression that they try to create it's like trump love and uh you know the

better way this is the path these are the experts don't you want to be part of the intellectual and winning team you

know yeah uh yeah follow the science follow-up um the vera's database was another thing

and maybe if you can just you want to describe what that is well you know again most people don't know about this and that's fine as we got into this but

we're two years into it and most people still don't know about it so just backing up a little bit i i love a

robust conversation i love a robust conversation but um one of my uh i've never really if

everybody i've ever talked to and i talked to a lot of people daily heard very strong arguments for why they got

vaccinated or or why that is the right way to go about it or why an unvaccinated person is

wrong i just it just comes off as very superficial like you're reading the features and benefits of a you know a

hair tonic and that's it and there's no deeper delving into um the mechanisms behind so that's where

i feel like it does bypass intellect and people just picking an emotional side and decided that's the way we need to go

that's really concerning to me because i love you know the last thing i want are my own stale thoughts banging around my

head please challenge me tell me why you believe what you believe and i've rarely really

met anyone that could really articulate why they did in a in any form of a scientific you know

reasoning other than that's what the experts say yeah so yeah so just yeah so just interject so

the um because that's and that's the argument is like you know what i think about 100 things a day i don't want to

think about this the experts are saying i should get the vaccine so i'll get the vaccine now i think the the disparity

here is like yes that is what the the ex quote i'm quoting um on our audio only

podcast um uh the experts are saying this but um what what's not sort

of being reported is that other experts are saying other things there are the the statistics are

overwhelmingly the statistics are disturbing in the sense that it doesn't seem to reflect

this the the measures that are being um enforced uh like in terms of um you know

shutting down businesses and like closing uh you know like mass mandates and everything like that

um it doesn't seem to be enough to take us to that it never seemed to be enough to me the risk and the the the amount of

people dying uh or getting sick never seemed to be enough to me to justify the infringement

on rights like so so um and you know you always think like well if if this is

going to do that what would it happen if we had a bigger disease but um the

asking about so you get you get into things like you know the varus database there was a lot of controversy over the

numbers that were being shown there and like i think that that is that's one of the things where i thought like well that's weird why so like maybe if you if

you can describe a bit about the various databases so the problem with so it's i believe it stands for vaccine adverse event reaction site yeah something like

something like that and um i believe um the fda or pfizer are mandated to have

this up so it isn't like it's some third party it's the main mechanism for capturing data on adverse reactions due

to vaccinations in america every country or maybe in europe they have their own generalized system canada

we have our own uh they have their own capturing sites for such information the criticism of it is that anybody can put

in their own information so so if somebody so somebody has it's a you know website you go to somebody has

an adverse reaction to something they're like hey i felt a headache um and i just got my boxing you know yeah you can put

but if you put i bel i've heard that if you once you enter it the fda do contact

you you have to put in all your information when you put it there okay and um if you lie it's a criminal

offense oh i didn't know that so those are the criticisms that anyone can add it but there are some you know goal posts there

to keep things going but i've also read that 74 of all entries are by medical professionals

so so it's not perfect the problem why would medical

professionals be entering oh because they're doing it on behalf of the behalf of the picture that had an adverse reaction yeah absolutely

um the problem and i've heard it explained like this is that if if the information we're getting from

bears is uh correct then we have a big problem in our hands and because sorry because the numbers

were wrong because the numbers are very high yeah yeah and that's and yeah there's an absolute

versus percentage way of looking at it but long story short they're very high i believe vaccines are taken off the

market when there's 150 deaths and the last time i checked they were in america alone over 10 000 deaths had

been entered into the system for the covert vaccine sometimes i even go on layman's terms like well what if 99 of

those deaths are just incorrect you're still at 100. right right so we're close to the threshold if not beyond

um so the criticism um so if if this system is correct we have a big problem

in our hands and if it isn't correct then we can't say they're safe and effective because we do not have a

system to monitor these adverse reactions right so we're damned if we do damned if we don't yeah right so we're going to

have to do on you know taking a precautionary principle assume that they're mostly correct

right right and based on that again i would say your own personal choice there are the cdc nih the fda who

approve things but uh the data is um not overwhelmingly

convincing that this is the right solution for everybody right yeah it's as simple as that so you know in

canada it's a little different it's i heard it's a lot more bureaucratic it has to go through a board they determine

this and that but keep in mind the day before astrazeneca got banned in

canada our adverse reaction site on the canadian and provincial federal and

provincial websites were saying vaccines are safe and effective the day before we got rid of astrazeneca

14 countries had already stopped astrazeneca before us

so i would say canada faults on the other side where they're overly cautious with their data to the point where things can slip through

and then we have you know problems we need to mop up in the future so i can only imagine if how a person

must feel in canada if they got astrazeneca on a monday and then on tuesday they were told we're stopping tonight yeah there was no the system is green

but we're now hedging into yellow it might go red it was green then red right right right so

that i don't think that's particularly beneficial to most people in this society yeah and i you know again the argument would probably be everything is

happening so fast so they have to you know true but we're a g7 country and 14 other countries have banned it already

right we really should be in the top five or by definition seven you know looking at this

i mean not not to mention that i believe to get the numbers you know mostly right it was the blood clotting was the issue

of astrozenica and it was something to the effect of one in fifty five thousand that was enough to say we need to stop

this but myocardisis and uh certain populations of men between 16 and 24 can

come out somewhere between one and twelve hundred and one five thousand that's ten times worse than what the

blood clots were overall for astrazeneca right so yes we are switching to moderna

not pfizer looking at it as we should more nuanced again not an anti-vac statement it's just like let's take time

to look at the data so we can apply the right medication to the right person it can't simply be a centralized planning

one size fits all i just believe in science and i'm gonna rush off and get it because they said it

was okay mentality yeah i'll tell you one amazing quote though sure by uh trudeau

mandates are the only way to avoid restrictions

he said that in parliament that's incredible i wrote quote of the century yeah really like mandates are

the way to avoid restrictions right yeah welcome to your alien nightmare

he's a brilliant man all right so let's uh talk a little bit about um so you know putting this into

um um some sort of structure let's uh all these reasons and more were why

well let me ask you so you this is these were things that obviously influenced your i mean uh your decisions not to take uh not to

get the vaccine okay um no i'm asking i'm asking you yeah what are the

no i'm more i'm more saying um what in like

it was more like a question but like a state i formed like a statement but it was actually a question like so these

are the things these these things that we've talked about are are um things that influenced you not to get the box

yes is there anything else yeah is there anything that really comes to mind that is um

was there any kind of turning point where you were like oh like that's a big um like

you know for me it was a censorship like for me it was like these people that i you know you know you listen to uh a

dark horse podcast and brought them up a few times here uh but it's um you know

you listen to that and you listen to the way that um they're talking about these things

and it is in a very reasonable a very like um you know they're using logic they're employing uh

um you know the the language they use it's not absolute it's not like there's no certainty there there's there's a

kind of hesitant you know let's slowly tread through this and find out as you

know together let's find out what the solution is well that's sort of the nefariousness that we're trying to fight

against is that if you just take a knee-jerk reaction and do the opposite of what the government says and do the

opposite of what big pharma says you'll find yourself on the other side of an equation an argument that you don't have

much scientific standing the truth is actually in the more dangerous place which is in the middle

right pfizer is partly right the government is partly right they're not totally wrong in this right but what

parts are right and what parts are wrong and that takes a lot of sessing out a lot of effort and you gotta get comfortable being like alt-center in a

sense and i think that's really the the place we need to be and it's going to be an arduous time-consuming task but

simply knee-jerk reactions to these politicians are awful throw them all out let's start the system over again big

pharma is only here to kill us is not the right way to handle it either yeah so you're right those long-form

conversations have gone a long way but i'm going back to what you're saying for me it's not just about um are these

things the right way through it like are they the the correct mechanism is are we implementing them

in the right way as well because that's part of the solution of a society and if i don't like the way they're

implementing the solution then you're actually adding to the problem or creating at least a secondary problem

that may take longer to mop up than the initial problem so you know sort of normalizing coercion

normalizing governments calling unacceptable views

and freezing your bank accounts and you may now be fired from your job and ostracized from

society and be told by trudeau on french canadian television that if you do not get the vaccine you are by definition a

racist and misogynist why would i want to participate in that sort of problem if anything i would argue i would avoid

taking the vaccine on a personal level and i do not recommend someone else because it's my political stand and i'm

willing to risk my life which is not a large amount based on the data because i'm at 49 years of age and have well

over 99 chance of survival so it isn't like i'm picking a particularly dangerous sword

to die on right but um i would reject the vaccine simply because by

participating in this i'm also participating in creating and legitimizing the system of coercion that's gone on in order to allow this

and i need to take an ethical stand that i am not going to participate that even if it means i'm risking my personal life

to a little degree yeah well said um i think we have to be aware of

compromise to some extent like i think that i think there are people who would say i think a lot of people would say

for example like yeah well um you know sure i know i'm sure the pharmaceutical companies do bad things and i'm sure

that uh you know the government you can't trust them sort of generalizing of things where it's like yeah there's some

good there's some bad you're kind of right like we'll have to agree to disagree this whole sort of equivocation where it's like um

[Music] like it's almost like a cloud around like the

truth where it's like you know you can present some figures or you can present some data and say okay

let's take this now let's see where this is going to go they just want they just want to default to something that's safe something where

it's like you know i don't feel um you know i you know you might be kind of right you might be you know a little

writing it's like no no it's not really about whether i'm right on this or whether i'm not or whether you're right or whoever's right let's figure out the

truth together let's find out you know based on this data let's go forward from here and like you know we'll find points

along the way where it's like uh you know oh we were wrong about this let's correct and then then try to go but

always pursuing the truth this is throwing up your hands and being like you know well there's two points of this

if there's if if you're just dead certain that it's like well you if you don't get the vaccine you're a racist like there's just no arguing i mean

that's its own horror but like but i think a more common one is just this you know if you push too hard especially you

know what friends or family you get this kind of like look let's agree to disagree it's like yeah but can't we

talk about it anymore like why don't we talk about it i think the problem with that is that the talking anymore

means that they have to be a little bit the other person a little bit willing to engage

new data and actually you know uh attack it

circle it think about it and discern for themselves whether that new data can be incorporated

harmless uh harmoniously with their own data that they have brought to the table as well

or if it's so polar that it means they didn't have to choose a side in the battle and i think the truth is like

adding like more yarn to the ball you have to layer it on and layer it on and later on instead of like pulling things

apart um yeah and i think the problem is that people just don't want to engage any

more new data uh other than what's been professionally brought to them you know look at it this way um

listening to doctors who are experts on a podcast on youtube comes off as sort of like the poor man's solution to

knowledge like you know it's just you can get on youtube as long as you have internet connection it's free right but when you pay your 100 rogers bill every

month for your fancy television and that's where your biggest bill goes towards and now you have all these television channels and these experts

weighing the data that they're giving you versus somebody you listen to on your laptop just by definition people

are going to i think gravitate to that which is the larger industry because they're going to see validity in that industry right right

yeah they're on tv they're on tv i pay 200 a month for my build this has to be the doctors that i listen to right as

opposed to the one i saw on my cell phone for 15 seconds all right right so

the problem is is that i think a lot of people just don't want to engage any extraneous new doctors that they are

not represented on the on the platform in which they're already going if those doctors were on that

platform they may very well engage with the information you're talking about but i think it's the definition of the

platform you know in the states it's so polarized if a doctor shows up on fox nobody listening to cnn will ever listen to them right right even though it's on

tv so that's something that's already on the same sort of at least it's on the television imagine when you break it

down a few levels more and go into podcasts and whatnot i i would even go a step further and i think that it's it's

more that it's become so easy for media to

put forth a narrative and to keep it on point that it seems it's just the the amount of work that

the average person would have to put in to overcome that and then find out the real

answer like these podcasts are like two hours two and a half hours like i mean you really have to be invested like

that's just one story and if you know and if it has contradictory information it's like it's like oh like now i have

to go back and like actually look at this article and like i don't have the time for this in the era of convenience it's very inconvenient it is it is and i

think that's a big part of the problem is like and and the media makes it easy for you it's like don't don't even bother with that that's that's crazy

like you're not an anti-vaxxer like this is look at the experts we have or i do find sometimes there's this sort of the

uh and you might find this on regular legacy media as well well you know these are what our experts

present and this is why we think it's the right thing to do and then they will show the worst of the

offenders from the opposing point of view right right 5g microchips in your arms flat earth right and you turn for a

second and you engage that data and go oh my lord that's horrific and then the

head directly turns back to the shadows on the wall and says this is my master

this is my truth not realizing that there may be a third fourth fifth one hundredth path to take right they

present for a very brief second the worst of the other side

because they know you're going to be as a human a little bit curious they'll present you the worst only to guide you

back to the the well-padded secure uh cell in which they prepared for you so

so question why would the media have this agenda we talk about the they again

so like is it like why why would the media want to promote this well is it media independent

okay let's say so for example because you could say well the cbc um you know or look at cnn they're they're at least

i mean i don't know what their who their parent company is or whatever but like um they're

ostensibly uh independent so why wouldn't they wouldn't it even be in their benefit to have two opposing

things to i think there's two reasons i don't know how independent they are if you dig deeper into which are the parent

companies that own them and um if those parent companies have any ties to pharmaceutical companies that would be

and i have seen things but i don't want to just say something i'm not 100 certain about

and then you have to look at their advertising dollars and where do they actually come from and i do believe

they're in the states particular there is a lot of advertising dollars that come in from big pharma

and so that's one of the two components the other component is that if you are

cnn or fox due to this a very you know partisan uh polar opposite approach to

just life in the states red states blue states it's just one or two options that's all you have they're going to

play to their base so they're going to simply provide information in which they know their core viewers are tuning in

for so as opposed to giving you a little bit of everything even 80 20 because we know most of our

viewers want to hear the 80 they're going to give 100 to the 80 percent right and then the 20

like they'll see you later go somewhere else so i the only solution is you have to listen to a lot of resources

podcasts different news channels and put in a lot of time the number of people that put down joe rogan all the time but

have never actually spent you know five minutes listening to him is

you know people that i interge anyone who's actually spent time listening to him usually has at least a sympathetic ear towards what he's doing

right you know yeah and those who don't are people who have never put any time into him whatsoever yeah the people

castigating him as uh you know i mean

he's ridiculed only by people who have never listened to him you know people just see the shiny head the muscles yeah

yeah yeah he likes to eat elk you know and he does ufc and he's on fear factor making people eat spiders

you're right right yeah like i'm not listening to that joe rogan they literally have him a couple steps away from alex jones right right which she's

had on the show yeah multiple times you know um so then they chuck them into that category and then they talk to you

about horse dewormer and this and that and they're done yeah they do not put any more time into that yeah and they

and it's crazy that they don't listen to us because i really believe that you know i mean i haven't

i've watched probably about you know five percent maybe of his of his podcast like over the years but it's like um

maybe not even that high but like you really get the sense when when he's having a conversation he's looking for

the truth he's asking questions he's listening to the people there's no like agenda you know there's no like um uh

he really seems to be somebody and i think this is why he's so attractive to so many people is like he seemed to be almost like an every man looking for the

truth which is what you know we are all on some level that's us well and the beautiful thing about the three-hour

format which he's one of the pioneers of is that as humans we evolved to be sitting around the campfire

talking for three four hours trying to get along with those around the campfire and there's lots of spacer um uh yeah i

see what you oh oh now okay instead of these short little micro bites you get

in four minute segments on cnn or fox or whatever yeah i think we're thirsty for that as a as a as a culture we need like

i feel nourished when i when i listen to some of these most people do yeah and uh it's just that it's the it's time

consuming and we live in a very busy world and uh people just don't have the energy to put

into that um to like you said you love you you're a big fan of joe rogan's podcast but you only have really got

around to five percent of them yeah so then pumps out one every other day it's like yeah yeah it's a big body of work

actually and for me i just think also like i think of like little greek taverns where old men would meet at 10

o'clock in the morning and sit till lunchtime 1 32 drinking their uzo and rocky reiki and stuff from the first

thing in the morning and and just having these uh you know very

opinionated but um you know no one ever left the cafe because they didn't like with the opinion of someone else they would sit there and just debate one

another there's a there's a very tribal societal

natural evolutionary process that unfolds there that you get from a three-hour podcast that we do not get

from a 45-minute news segment yeah and um the 45 new segment really kind of

terrifies me because it's punchy it's short the duration of time means it has to be

hyper focused you know just like tweets can only allow you to be so nuanced in your response it actually i think it

might actually even like reformat our brains to pick a side with little information very quickly and then move

on yeah you know we've all just we see it with children using ipads at the age of two now before they know how to pick up a

pencil right so i think we've all been formatted to just absorb information in that way now and it's um not doing us

any service yeah no i would agree with that um okay well i think we should just wrap

this up uh like i'm sure we'll have another show on the pandemic of uh

some i hope that this one in some way uh explained to people listening

you know uh why we made some of the choices we made and you know not even saying that

they're right and one of the big problems i always had was like you know people would you know there's no i was never certain

about anything you know i i never proclaimed any sort of truth with authority because i i don't

know and i don't think anybody does so it's kind of i hope to be wrong about all of this yeah no yeah exactly i'm a

dog in the game i have just watching what unfolds yeah and i'm curious and uh

yeah i people who just assume they're right right away like i don't i don't care to

be right about any of this i would love to just trust the narrative and move with it it'd be so much easier well you

could just do so many other things that you want to do in life instead of having to defend your principles you know like

and i've put a lot of hours in the last two years into this and um it's changed the way i view the

world on multiple levels i'd almost come like a call it a pandemic of modernity or something because it's it's it's it goes well

beyond the mandates that we're living today you know and um we need to that's like as you're to your

point we'll be talking more about all these things because the underlying issue here is uh like

what have we how have we created society how we structured how we find information absorb information and deal

with any new information and how that affects the way in which we interact with each

other in a civil society right down to within families you literally have families who don't want to sit at the

dinner table anymore with each other based on different misinformation mal information

whatnot yeah yep well said um and uh

i think we'll leave it there and thank you for listening thank you

it's been a pleasure bye